SIA 777 on fire

[vixen]

Fair enough. No probs.I guess I was trying to say that I'd be very surprised to ever hear a fire crew recommend an evacuation, however they might well pass on info which led to that immediate decision. "Your whole right wing is on fire" would be an example.

 

Talking directly to them is also slightly more complicated than you might think and requires you to use another radio. They generally have their own frequency which you might need to get from ATC depending on where you are.

 

BTW, you are absolutely right in your first post that cabin crew instructions must be obeyed by the passengers!

Thanks DR. Interesting - I had no idea fire crew are on a different frequency - so I guess that might put my speculation to bed. lol.

 

Overall, I see this accident as one of the most intriguing of recent times (MH370 being THE most ofcourse!)

 

I wonder what decision was made re evac? Was a decision actually made? - or was it "all berry bad lah" but zip done? Can barely await the report.

 

Finally, thanks for your support for Cabin Crew - in my experience pax generally have no clue re their training and skills. 6 - 8 weeks training and constant checking - for what?.... how to pour a G&T? doh. CHEERS

 

 

[kasper]

Thanks DR. Interesting - I had no idea fire crew are on a different frequency - so I guess that might put my speculation to bed. lol.Overall, I see this accident as one of the most intriguing of recent times (MH370 being THE most ofcourse!)

 

I wonder what decision was made re evac? Was a decision actually made? - or was it "all berry bad lah" but zip done? Can barely await the report.

 

Finally, thanks for your support for Cabin Crew - in my experience pax generally have no clue re their training and skills. 6 - 8 weeks training and constant checking - for what?.... how to pour a G&T? doh. CHEERS

Yes well people in the industry or who work with people in the industry do realize that cabin crew are there for safety firstly and G&T well down the list.

 

 

[vixen]

I guess it is appropriate to respond by saying that despite my law-abiding nature and lack of prior convictions, if I had seen an entire wing inflames and knowing it contained large amounts of fuel I think I would have panicked to the extent of opening an emergency exit on the other side if I had been in that row, and probably fighting anyone who tried to stop me. Like the pilot , I might retrospectively been labelled a crazy panic merchant or the bloke whose cool actions saved a lot of passengers, you never know.It isn't about what I think now, or what I wish I had done in retrospect, but how I would react in those few seconds. Some people sit quietly and obey orders, but I think others use their own initiative and experience. It might be described as panic by outside observers but it is self-preservation.

 

And as someone who spent too much of his life on long haul flights I have the greatest respect and gratitude for the cabin staff. Luckily I was never in that situation, just being honest.

Yes you are guessing PM.

 

Part of our "silent review" check list prior to take-off or landing is to look for a ABP (Able Bodied Person) who we may direct to help us in an emergency. Preferably say, as an example, the civvie you noticed put his Army slouch hat in the locker upon boarding.

 

However - where your argument falls short is nobody really knows how an untrained person will respond in an emergency. Much research over eons has found that it's often the big boofy gym toned bloke in a tank top will go to water and freeze! Whereas the vertically challenged tiny young girl will be the towering strength and hero!

 

Furthermore you say on one hand you respect cabin crew and yet you'd punch them on the nose if they didn't do what you reckoned should be done.

 

Fact is ALL pax should, nee MUST, follow the crew's directives.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I'm unaware of anyone who has instinctively tried to open an emergency exit on the ground during an emergency. I'd be interested to see it, because I'll bet any money that they (if they could get past the door primary and then figure out how it opens) would leap straight out - which would be a fascinating result as the slide is still unfurling and hasn't inflated yet.

 

I am aware of some instances where passengers with - ahem - shall we say "slight psychological problems" have tried to open a door on the ground or in flight.

 

While conceivably they could do it on the ground, it ain't gonna happen in flight no matter how hard you try!

 

 

[facthunter]

Unless Chaos is your thing. They usually put other than decrepit types near the overwing exits. Takes a bit of a tug to pull the window in, especially if there is still some cabin pressure existing There was a DC10 had a cabin fire in Turkey and they just kept taxiing forever. I think everyone died on that one. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yeah if you do the sums with pounds per square inch, or kg per square cm, or whatever, you'll find that it doesn't take much cabin pressure to make opening an exit highly improbable.

 

For the uninitiated, all cabin doors (including the power-assisted main ones) require an inwards movement before they can be opened. This is why it's not possible for a cabin door to "blow" outwards unless there is a major structural failure, in which case you're screwed anyway.

 

Cargo doors are not designed the same way. They can (and will) blow outwards if the locking mechanisms fail.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

Lots of people in aeroplanes and ships have died because the captains failed to order abandon ship until too late.

 

 

[Pearo]

Lots of people in aeroplanes and ships have died because the captains failed to order abandon ship until too late.

I am a sailor and I can assure you a lot of people have died from abandoning ship to soon also.

 

In this thread: Much opinion, little fact.

 

 

[dutchroll]

....from abandoning ship too soon when half of it was on fire and the evacuation was onto dry land?

 

 

[flyvulcan]

Vixen's generalization of the Cabin Crew for Australian carriers is pretty well spot on. Their training is generally of a very high standard and the conscientiousness of the CC is generally good.

 

However, this is definitely not the case with overseas carriers. I have attended a number of Emergency Procedures refresher courses in the cabin simulator that were run by my local airline where the performance of the Cabin Crew in relation to on-board fires and general emergencies was abysmal, even after the exercise had been pre-briefed extensively including crew actions. Also, the decision making ability of many of the timid Asian girls was very disappointing, essentially it was non existent. Yet they still all passed their course and continued to fly the line. I would have had very little confidence in their ability to effectively handle an emergency situation.

 

While I am legally obliged to follow the lawful command of a crew member, my professional training and analysis of a situation may certainly dictate whether I choose to obey their command or not.

 

Have a look at this China Airlines B737 fire at Okinawa. The location and extent of the fire bears a strong resemblance to the Singapore situation, i.e a fairly strong fire in the region of the right wing. Note that the first passenger goes down the slides at 00:15, the last passenger appears to go down the slide at 1:45 and the aircraft blows up at 1:55, approximately 1:40 after the first pax evacuated. If this evacuation had been delayed for a minute, the loss of life would likely not have been zero.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tY2HzWCvhw

 

This video, along with the Manchester B737 where not everyone got out after the aircraft evacuation was delayed, along with a number of others are firmly imprinted in my memory and would likely influence my decision whether to risk injuries by evacuating or gamble that the jet won't explode like the China Airlines one did, but that's just me...

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yeah seriously, if your wing is profusely burning, you don't need to be f***ing around. As I said before, even with fuel dumping there is a bucketload of fuel remaining in that wing.

 

It's no good saying "oh well you can throw a match into a pool of aviation turbine fuel on the ground and it won't catch fire". That friggin' well doesn't apply if you have a spectacular oil fire burning at the time!

 

It's SIA though. I'll be pleasantly surprised if we see the full investigation results.

 

 

[dsam]

Watching that video in Japan, does anybody else think that 4:30 + is a very long time to wait for fire retardant to be begin to be sprayed on a stationery aircraft on the main apron??

 

I would have expected a much quicker response time, particularly if a problem was radioed as soon as a fire started (likely well before this video started).

 

Admittedly I'm not a fireman, but it looks to me like a rather poor effort from the fire services people, from start to finish.

 

 

[Pearo]

....from abandoning ship too soon when half of it was on fire and the evacuation was onto dry land?

OK, I concede, You are the expert on this.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I wasn't after a concession, Pearo.

 

It's just that I'm trying to make clear that the circumstances and result do not make sense to me, no matter which way I look at it.

 

.

 

Maybe the investigation will prove the course of action was brilliant. In which case I will continue my long aviation learning curve. Then again......maybe it won't!

 

 

[facthunter]

The heat will melt holes into the cabin fairly quickly and the thick black smoke flashes over in the cabin. It's very toxic and kills you if the fire doesn't. The cockpit side windows can be opened wide enough to allow you to lean out up to your waste and see things or exit on a rope if you have to. Generally if the fire cannot be controlled with absolute certainty, you evacuate as fast as the safe exits available, permit. The fact someone got run over by a ground vehicle in one case would not affect the need to get the hell out of there.. The crew have plenty to do and are generally the last ones off. You chuck the people down the slide. You don't want just "ornamental" cabin crew then. You need the real McCoy. Nev

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Crickey FV, were the firemen away at their annual picnic?

 

 

[flyvulcan]

Crickey FV, were the firemen away at their annual picnic?

It certainly seemed like a long response time to me as well!! I certainly wouldn't have been hanging around in the aircraft waiting for the Rescue and Firefighting Services to arrive!!

 

What you probably can't make out in the video that I posted is a single very brave lad who rushed in with a hand-held fire extinguisher to fight the fire while the pax were evacuating. He can be seen on other YouTube videos of the event. I hope he got a medal for it because it was a very brave and selfless act. The fire was clearly outside the scope of being put out by his handheld but he still gave it a go.

 

 

[Pearo]

Crickey FV, were the firemen away at their annual picnic?

As per the ATC recording, the pilots had not requested emergency services because all they knew is that there was an oil pressure warning.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

As per the ATC recording, the pilots had not requested emergency services because all they knew is that there was an oil pressure warning.

I should have mentioned that I was referring to Flyvulcan's #60 post.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Happy snaps of the SIA B777 aftermath.

 

Word on the street is that it was actually leaking fuel which ignited upon landing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnm]

if lets say it was a fuel fed engine fire (I'm not assuming it was) .......................... is there a fuel cut off to starve fuel ?

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yes. If the engine is shutdown in flight, fuel will be cutoff at the spar valve. My understanding is that this engine was not shutdown.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

And if the damage is upstream of the LP or HP fuel valves you can't stop the fuel leak, assume Boeing are similar to the Bus.

 

 

[facthunter]

From the "Plumbing " point of view the fuel is able to be isolated at each fuel tank, It can also be shut off at the engine itself which is done in a "normal" engine fire procedure.. Was that engine still idling? No smoke/flame came out the front. The fire spread all along the wing at the leading edge flap position. How does THAT happen? That plane will be AOG for a long time. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

I believe they came back with thrust reduced to idle.

 

In a Boeing, fulling the engine fire handle, or moving the fuel control switch to cutoff, will close the spar valve and prevent any fuel flow to the engine. This doesn't solve the problem of a fuel leak in the wing area, but if it's in any of the engine plumbing including the first & second stage fuel pumps, the fuel/oil heat exchanger, etc, it will cutoff the fuel leak.