Spitfire damaged in motorway incident

[boleropilot]

Geoff,

 

I stand by my comments and do not appreciate being publicly ridiculed for my opinion - the fact that you are not bothered you have done this does not bother me one bit. If it wasn't your intention to do so then perhaps your wording could have been a little more positive in putting your point forward and not made the issue personal.

 

The comment that you basically do not give a damn about someone you have publicly ridiculed being angry about your comments indicates a degree of - what's the word - arrogance?

 

As for the RACQ, once again, we will have to agree to disagree - those who have negative results from dealing with them are likely to have a negative impression of them, and vice versa.

 

BP

 

 

[Geoff13]

I actually said that the fact you are angry bothers me not one bit which is correct.

 

That it bothers you is a different kettle of fish.

 

As for my experiences with RACQ, they were in fact quite positive, RACQ were even kind enough to pay all my expenses on both occasions.

 

My point there was that just because an insurance company say you are blame free does not make you blame free it possibly means the other party either couldn't be bothered or couldn't afford to fight it.

 

Insurance companies always look for someone else to blame.

 

The simple fact is you drove on the road with an unsecured load and placed other road users at risk and then tried to blame someone else.

 

I see people on the road every day who are not competent to drive the vehicle or combination of vehicles that they are driving and that disappoints me and makes me angry at the system that allows it.

 

I don't get angry at the people involved until they try to shed their responsibility and/or blame others.

 

If I walked into your workplaces and placed others in danger through my incompetence I would expect them to get angry at me not at anyone else.

 

When you take a motor vehicle on the road it is your responsibility to ensure you are competent to use it.

 

If that makes me arrogant then I am guilty as charged but I would need to be judged by someone competent to do so before it bothered me.

 

I probably should bite my tongue and back out of this discussion but the road is my workplace and I will not step back when I see something that is not right. If I am out of line I apologise to the other forum members but I have seen to many people killed and maimed on the roads to be able to do that.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Settle down folks, no need to get to heated.

 

At the end of the day, even though the loaders have been given the blame, the pilot/driver is responsible for making sure their vehicle is legal/safe. If someone had died and you were driving a vehicle that was illegally loaded you would be taken for a ride. Take a look at trucks, which is Geoffs specialty, if they are grossly overloaded and kill someone both the driver AND the loader (assuming they are different people!) will have questions to answer which won't end well for either of them.

 

 

[spacesailor]

I hadn't heard of " double pendulum" before and after looking at Wikipedia I am totally confused at what it is, other than a mathematical something!.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[Geoff13]

If the load fell of the trailer, it was not secured. ie It was unsecured.

 

It can only be one or the other.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Adjectives certainly do provide for more vigorous and interesting discussion.....the dictionary has it, our parliamentarians use it with regularity, our footballers use it, why don't forums allow the use of lovely colorful descriptive language.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Well personally I think we should all be able to express ourselves well enough without it, but maybe I'm a tad simple?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I read it in The Age today,right there in the text with no protective warnings.

 

 

[onetrack]

Adjectives certainly do provide for more vigorous and interesting discussion.....the dictionary has it, our parliamentarians use it with regularity, our footballers use it, why don't forums allow the use of lovely colorful descriptive language

Because people get carried away with adjectives, exclamation marks, and often-times - abusive language, on forums.

As a result, a well-run forum requires constant moderation to ensure that people remain civil towards each other, and that numerous threads don't descend into a public free-for-all.

 

Remember, we are dealing with the written word, which doesn't have the moderating effect of facial expression, or tone of voice, that you would use in regular conversation.

 

We are also often speaking to people who are TUI, who are angry because they have just - received a nasty phone call/received a summons/had a major row with other half/neighbour/MIL - or who have indulged in mood-altering substances!

 

Many people often regret what was written, the day after it was typed up. A cooling off period is often necessary to rebalance the outlook.

 

As a result, the moderators job is a thankless one, but a necessary one!

 

 

[Bryon]

Because people get carried away with adjectives, exclamation marks, and often-times - abusive language, on forums.As a result, a well-run forum requires constant moderation to ensure that people remain civil towards each other, and that numerous threads don't descend into a public free-for-all.

Remember, we are dealing with the written word, which doesn't have the moderating effect of facial expression, or tone of voice, that you would use in regular conversation.

 

We are also often speaking to people who are TUI, who are angry because they have just - received a nasty phone call/received a summons/had a major row with other half/neighbour/MIL - or who have indulged in mood-altering substances!

 

Many people often regret what was written, the day after it was typed up. A cooling off period is often necessary to rebalance the outlook.

 

As a result, the moderators job is a thankless one, but a necessary one!

I totally agree, there should be no F*%$$#$(*(()&^%&*% bad language allowed...lol

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Well personally I think we should all be able to express ourselves well enough without it, but maybe I'm a tad simple?

It's much cleverer to make the other person want to express it ....

 

 

[spacesailor]

The F word was normal, then a queen said it was uncouth, so banned it, along with a few other English words, now we can't take a pixx, & have to urinate.

 

soacesailor

 

 

[M61A1]

It's much cleverer to make the other person want to express it ....

So, which one are you? also relevant to Not Fly_Tornado....

 

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I believe you've been misled by pop psychology

 

 

[bexrbetter]

So, which one are you?

Oh that's a little heavy for me, I'm laughing most of the time and would happily have a beer and a snag with anyone - it's only a computer, turn it off if it causes you grief.

 

One of the great things about Australian culture is we can usually give our opinions or have a dig and tell each other what to do with those opinions, and then move on to the next subject without carrying that baggage over to it.

 

Usually.

 

 

[boleropilot]

frankly, my dears, I don't give a fat rats rectum.......the fact that I finally came back here to see what was happening depresses me greatly

 

 

[Yenn]

I have personally pulled over three drivers towing trailers which obviously were loaded with a rearward C of G - none of them had any idea about the concept - neither did I until my unfortunate incident. I also pulled over a driver who had left the dolly wheel down,

 

Tha above is pulled from Boleropilots post.

 

I am wondering why BP pulled up those 3 drivers and noted the C of G, but didn't know about his own trailers C of G. I am also wondering who has the ability to pull over drivers and what their training is.

 

 

[kasper]

I hadn't heard of " double pendulum" before and after looking at Wikipedia I am totally confused at what it is, other than a mathematical something!.spacesailor

OK - in Wikipedia you will find some really nifty moving graphics of the double pendulum on the right hand side.

How to think about them as they may apply to the car/trailer set is ...

 

1. the top pendulum is from the front wheels tpo the tow hitch of your car while

 

2. the lower pendulum is the from the tow hitch to the wheels on the trailer

 

... now look at the moving graphic and consider that the car at the top with a trailer swinging behind it can get into VERY chaotic and violent motion.

 

 

[kasper]

OK - in Wikipedia you will find some really nifty moving graphics of the double pendulum on the right hand side.How to think about them as they may apply to the car/trailer set is ...

 

1. the top pendulum is from the front wheels tpo the tow hitch of your car while

 

2. the lower pendulum is the from the tow hitch to the wheels on the trailer

 

... now look at the moving graphic and consider that the car at the top with a trailer swinging behind it can get into VERY chaotic and violent motion.

This is particularly critical when the CofG of the trailer is rear of the trailer wheels because of course the trailer hitch is then lifting the rear wheels of your car and allowing the car to actually become the top pendulum

 

 

[Geoff13]

And when you are driving down the road grossing 62.5 tonnes at 100 kph and get overtaken by a car and caravan and see the action for real then you may question the whole concept a bit more.

 

 

[boleropilot]

I have personally pulled over three drivers towing trailers which obviously were loaded with a rearward C of G - none of them had any idea about the concept - . I also pulled over a driver who had left the dolly wheel down,Tha above is pulled from Boleropilots post.

I am wondering why BP pulled up those 3 drivers and noted the C of G, but didn't know about his own trailers C of G. I am also wondering who has the ability to pull over drivers and what their training is.

Yenn - please read my post again and note these words - "neither did I until my unfortunate incident" - which means (I think) that I tried to assist other drivers AFTER my incident when I witnessed a dangerous situation - as for the ability or training to pull over drivers: ability is basic, and my training involved passing the Queensland Police Service driving course in 2000 with High Level results. Having said that, I was not a Police Officer at the time I "gave some important information" to those drivers who were smart enough to pull over when the driver behind was flashing the headlights.

 

I don't need any authority to flash my headlights from behind, and if the car stops then I have saved someone some grief (and possibly injury to themselves or others). If they don't pull over, too bad, and good luck, at least I tried.

 

 

[turboplanner]

What an interesting concept, that someone other than me the driver could be responsible for incorrect loading of a trailer. The driver should be aware of the abilities of themselves and their vehicles. If I loaded a truck incorrectly and killed someone out on the road I am certain that the judge would be happy for me to say but your honor the girl on the weighbridge said it looked ok. I find it difficult to understand that you could even consider it would be someone elses fault other than the driver.As for trailer and caravan licences, should be compolsury without doubt.

 

Another point for anyone considering towing a trailer/caravan you should google double pendulum. It is a scary concept and We see the results every day we mostly just do not understand why.

The way it works is:

 

A

 

The manufacturer loads a truck to GVM for the ADR35 brake test; it also meets the correct front and rear axle/tyre/legal limits.

 

It's tested so it doesn't get out of shape under emergency braking, stays straight within a certain lane width.

 

Then it's certified.

 

B

 

When a body is put on it a calculation must be done by all those involved in building the body, extending/shortening the wheelbase to a code of practice, so that when the centre of gravity of the load is placed on the mid-point of the body'y's load bearing surface, with mass is distributed so that, with the cab/chassis mass and full fuel and driver the weight is distributed for the correct front and rear axle/tyre/legal limits. Loading personnel can then confidently evenly load the body about the centre of the load bearing surface.

 

C

 

When the truck is loaded, the loader, and when driven the driver must meet the quaintly worded Load Restraint Guide, which commits the loader and driver to load the vehicle up to GVM with the Centre of Gravity on the mid point of the body, this loading the axles to their correct limits, and retaining the braking and handling stability of the truck as Certified.

 

Under the LRG, as the driver is making his deliveries, after each drop he is responsible to ensure the truck remains in balance; not unlike a pilot has to do.

 

So different people have responsibilities for different phases of manufacture and loading and operation of the vehicle.

 

I haven't checked what the codes in force for small trailers are, and I haven't got into the more complicated Semi Trailer and B Double situation where I could write a thesis.

 

 

[onetrack]

The simple fact remains, so many drivers have such poor vehicle control skills, they can't even correct effectively, when they just drift off the edge of the road.

 

No Cookies | The Courier Mail

 

 

[boleropilot]

um - what exactly do you mean by that onetrack ? I can't imagine for one moment you are referring to my "unfortunate incident"....

 

I am one far king nanosecond away from baling out from this forum, because I have better things to do with my life than spend my precious time trying to communicate rationally with "expletive deleted" individuals

 

Trust me, this is my FINAL post on this forum (unless someone with rational, reasonable thought processes gets involved). My final words on this (and probably any other) subject:

 

1. there are NO legal requirements for any person to seek or obtain weight/loading specific information with respect to domestic trailers. There should be, but there isn't. To expect first-time trailer buyers to make an effort to seek out all the relevant information about trailers with respect to loading, C of G and vehicle dynamics is, frankly, inconceivable - who would do that?

 

2. if an untrained and inexperienced person who purchases a domestic trailer then has that trailer loaded incorrectly and unsafely by a company selling products to the driver of that domestic trailer and it happens that the loading is both incorrect and unsafe (even though the driver asks for confirmation on TWO occasions that the load is safe), then it is OBVIOUS (to NORMAL THINKING persons that it is UNREASONABLE to consider the driver would be at fault in the event of an incident - that is in fact the opinion of the RACQ legal department and I find it literally inconceivable that any reasonable minded person would think otherwise,

 

3. IF there were a legal requirement for domestic trailer owners to obtain weight/loading specific information with respect to domestic trailers and a person either did not do so or deliberately loaded their trailer incorrectly knowing full well that the loading was incorrect and dangerous OR accepted a dangerously loaded trailer, then that person acted with obvious illegal intent and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law in the case of any 'unfortunate incident'.

 

Now I am going to bed - in the morning I will be drawn to my computer like a moth to a flame, and I fully expect that any response/s to the words written above will prompt me to reply with words that will end my presence here. I'd like to say "goodbye, it's been nice" but that would be a lie.

 

For farks sake, someone take a deep breath and respond with some sanity.

 

BP

 

 

[onetrack]

BP - Take a chill pill, I wasn't referring to you, or your incident.

 

I was referring to the video link I posted, where the bloke hauling the camper trailer, drifted off the edge of the bitumen, and then over-corrected, due to poor vehicle control skills, and then planted his trailer into the grille of the oncoming truck.

 

You are correct, there are inadequate laws and training and qualifications related to towing trailers and caravans, and this needs to be addressed.

 

Unfortunately, it has needed to be addressed for a long time now, and no-one has done anything about it.