Required seperation between aircraft?

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Can anyone point me to the legislation that states the minimum distance allowed between two aircraft in flight (excluding formation flights). Strangely, I can't find any info on this in my textbooks or Google.

 

Rich

 

 

[Fishla]

Can't find anything from the AIP for class G.

 

But, Request Rejected

 

 

[Garfly]

This seems to be all the Visual Flight Rules Guide has to say about it

 

(prior to the 'Formation Flying CAR 163AA' section on page 77):

 

"OPERATING NEAR OTHER AIRCRAFT (CAR 163)

 

 

 

An aircraft must not be flown so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard."

 

 

[mnewbery]

Back in 2011...

 

Formation flying or not?

 

 

 

VFRG Version 5 Page 1.78 (noted above) refers to:

 

 

 

CASA CAR163

 

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 163 Operating near other aircraft

 

But...

 

 

 

 

 

CASA CAAP166-2(1) (Ahh, the good old advisory publication again)

 

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-2.pdf

 

 

 

In that document:

 

 

 

Airprox [iCAO Document (DOC) 4444]:

 

http://www.gcaa.com.gh/extweb/images/stories/ais/icaodoc4444.pdf

 

Appendix 4 diagram maxes out at 1400 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically. That would be fine at 5NM/minute because 1000 metres is 5/9 of a mile or 1/9 of a minute (about 7 seconds). At 60 knots or 1NM/minute that is 188 metres in 6 seconds. Obviously you'd expect about 1/5 as fast. The rate one radius at 60 knots (1NM/minute) is about 320 metres or 1000 feet. Doubling the speed doubles the radius. So if an aircraft is near you at the same height and at the same speed and travelling in the same direction it would be pretty hard to collide if you were more than two rate-one turn radii away and keeping an eye out because it would take at least 15 seconds to collide if you both turned towards each other. As a general rule, I'd feel safe if I could only just read the registration mark on the side of the other aircraft or not at all.

 

 

 

The link in post #2 above does appear definitive. CASA doesn't appear to provide contrary advice. 500 feet horizontally at 60 knots is less that five seconds. Not my cup of tea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mnewbery]

Further consideration with reference to CAR163:

 

1991 No. 382 CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS (AMENDMENT) - REG 16 16. Regulation 163 (Operation in proximity to other aircraft)

 

(4) In determining whether aircraft are in close proximity to each other,

regard is to be had to the type of aircraft in the formation and the speed of

 

those aircraft.

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Further consideration with reference to CAR163:1991 No. 382 CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS (AMENDMENT) - REG 16 16. Regulation 163 (Operation in proximity to other aircraft)

Thanks mate

 

 

[Garfly]

That's interesting. It seems hard to find clear guidance as to where flying 'in company' becomes 'formation flying'.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

That's interesting. It seems hard to find clear guidance as to where flying 'in company' becomes 'formation flying'.

As a student pilot I find it unbelievable I dont how close I can legally fly to another aircraft. Of all the CASA rules I have to learn for my exams (e.g. no starting engine within 8m of unsealed building), this one doesn't seem to be addressed.

 

 

[Ferris]

I have a recollection that separation is 600 metres when airborne. I'm happy to be corrected on this.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

That's interesting. It seems hard to find clear guidance as to where flying 'in company' becomes 'formation flying'.

For RAAus aircraft it is specified in the Operations manual

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Camel]

The separation for RAA aircraft in ops manual is different to the required by GA aircraft in casa regs.

 

 

[Neil_S]

My documentation states 100 feet

 

 

[Yenn]

I seem to remember that 100' is the correct figure, but it is well hidden. Formation flying has to be done by agreement and with the correct endorsements.

 

One of the ways to get caught when flying close to anothe plane is when you are approaching a slower plane from behind. You don't seem to be getting any closer and then all of a sudden that plane grows very big and hopefully you pass it with room to spare.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

The only thing I can find regarding 100 ft in the ops manual is the definition of formation flight:

 

Formation Flight: Two or more aeroplanes flown in close proximity (closer than 100FT) which operate as a single aeroplane with regard to navigation, position reporting and control.

 

I don't think that means two aircraft (not engaging in formation flight) coming within 110 ft on a reciprocal heading would be acceptable or safe.

 

 

[Garfly]

I think the only practical use of the number is as a guideline for pilots flying in company but not 'in formation'. It seems a sensible distance, for such a case, assuming the pilots are aware of each other and in radio contact.

 

 

[Ozfergie]

For general aviation aircraft (non-commercial aircraft) outside of controlled airspace, separation can be as close as 500 ft (152 m) vertically and 500 ft horizontally.

 

 

[ian00798]

I find 5NM or 1000ft works a treat, but I get the feeling that's not the sort of separation this thread is talking about.

 

 

[Garfly]

But when you're practising for peak hour at Ozkosh, a bit less can work too ...

 

 

[Photo by Daniel Valovich as published in AvWeb's Picture of the Week.]

 

 

[408059]

Another view.

 

Back in the early 1990s I spent 6 months as a gliding instructor at Lasham airfield in the UK. On one Saturday afternoon, when the weather was brilliant (yes it sometime happens in the UK), I was in the back seat training a student and found a very strong thermal. We were joined by others, which presented a good opportunity to teach 'thermal rules and etiquette'. After about 5 minutes, once I was confident with the student, I counted the sailplanes in the thermal with us. It numbered 16, most without radios, with different skill levels and all within a couple of hundred feet of each other, vertically and horizontally. It was scary, especially for an Australian used to seeing only one or two gliders in the same thermal. That day was followed by a bar room session on the number of gliders a thermal will support. Nowadays, having more than 4-5 aircraft in circuit, with different performance levels, frustrates me. A different time, a younger person, and a different discipline.

 

Steve

 

 

[poteroo]

That's interesting. It seems hard to find clear guidance as to where flying 'in company' becomes 'formation flying'.

When you can count the rivets and check the other aircraft over for corrosion spots! happy days,

 

 

[CAV0K]

When I sat the exam a month or 2 ago the answer was 100m/ft (cant remember if it was m or ft, pretty sure it was ft though, 100m/30ft seems really close) .. I couldn't find a definitive reference anywhere.

 

I did raise a few issues with exam questions and have since been told all RA-Aus exams have been reviewed and replaced within the last couple of weeks.

 

 

[SDQDI]

When I sat the exam a month or 2 ago the answer was 100m/ft (cant remember if it was m or ft, pretty sure it was ft though, 100m/30ft seems really close) .. I couldn't find a definitive reference anywhere.I did raise a few issues with exam questions and have since been told all RA-Aus exams have been reviewed and replaced within the last couple of weeks.

I was fairly sure that it was 100 feet.

Ps 100metres is closer to 300 feet than 30 and is a bigger distance than 100 feet.

 

 

[CAV0K]

I was fairly sure that it was 100 feet.Ps 100metres is closer to 300 feet than 30 and is a bigger distance than 100 feet.

Haha yes, you are quite right! it must have been ft.

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's well to remember that if you are closing with another aircraft, IF it stays in the same position in your windscreen you WILL collide with it. If it's moving in the window, turn to make it move faster is the most effective but both should turn to the right, if approaching head on according to the rules, and overtake on the right. A PIC is not supposed to fly in such a way as to place the plane in a hazardous situation, so ...? Don't forget it applies in the vertical sense too, so if they are moving UP in your windscreen, you move down. Another consideration is keeping the other plane in view. IF you can't see a plane you know was/is in close proximity you are in a hazardous situation. so avoid that. Know where each one is.

 

Formation flying is different. you follow someone elses lead.You're too close to watch everyone. .Nev

 

 

[Parkway]

1000 feet vertically?? At Jandakot where I fly we routinely have inbound traffic @ 1500msl overflying pattern traffic @1000msl. I much prefer the counting rivets rule hahaha