RAAus election process

[Keith Page]

Hello kasper,

 

re. Your #164.

 

I can remember the president and his followers back in the Runciman years yelling how un-constitutional the actions of the day were.

 

Now look what is happening now, I can not see any difference, only different issues.

 

May be worse this time as the constitution is being meddled with.

 

Regards,

 

KP

 

 

[turboplanner]

Hello kasper,re. Your #164.

I can remember the president and his followers back in the Runciman years yelling how un-constitutional the actions of the day were.

 

Now look what is happening now, I can not see any difference, only different issues.

 

May be worse this time as the constitution is being meddled with.

 

Regards,

 

KP

There is also the slight difference that the Organisation is now a limited company, without the complex constitution that "business" orientated people told us would

ensure it wasn't run like the local cricket club or the Grong Grong historic society.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

In its heyday Grong Grong had two pubs, a post office, bakery, a butter factory, sale and slaughter yards, butchers, four black smith shops, a general store and two shops, a school, police station, two stock and station agents, a bank, stables, sports club, train station, a couple of dance halls, the Commemoration Hall, a football club,

 

a racecourse and gymkhana events, three churches, three mechanics and more. Lots for the Historic Society to talk about.

 

 

[turboplanner]

In its heyday Grong Grong had two pubs, a post office, bakery, a butter factory, sale and slaughter yards, butchers, four black smith shops, a general store and two shops, a school, police station, two stock and station agents, a bank, stables, sports club, train station, a couple of dance halls, the Commemoration Hall, a football club,a racecourse and gymkhana events, three churches, three mechanics and more. Lots for the Historic Society to talk about.

Yes but old Mrs McPhail and her daughter only kept the things they Mrs. M liked and quietly binned most of what you mentioned and they can't get her out because no one has a copy of the constitution.

 

 

[2tonne]

Other than being able to say "I told you so", I don't really see the point in trying to challenge the validity of the election. Somewhat surprisingly perhaps, Courts will occassioanlly interpret an Act in a pragmatic way without relying on an overly meticulous verbal analysis of the actual words used. Not to mention this would be a hugely expensive exercise.

 

 

[SDQDI]

In its heyday Grong Grong had two pubs, a post office, bakery, a butter factory, sale and slaughter yards, butchers, four black smith shops, a general store and two shops, a school, police station, two stock and station agents, a bank, stables, sports club, train station, a couple of dance halls, the Commemoration Hall, a football club,a racecourse and gymkhana events, three churches, three mechanics and more. Lots for the Historic Society to talk about.

My wife was a Grong Grong Local:victory:........ Yes yes totally insignificant but so are most of my ramblings:chuffed:

 

As for the early election, good on them for getting in and getting things happening. I can understand canning it if the new constitution failed getting throu asic but I see no problem as it stands. Also good on them for sending out the mag with the ballot form, I think that this should be something that should be done for each election.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hello rick-p,

 

I am stuck for inspiration. As you refered to the ivory tower and its residents. I can not under stand how this situation is different, I think it is worse as it is a "Constitutional Crissis" regarding this voting, kasper has his head around it.

 

As I mentioned to kasper the difference is, the crowd which was making the noise then, is steering the ship now.

 

They were yelling poor governance, fraud, not following the constitution and nepotism, how come this regime is so perfect and wonderful?

 

I do see one of the past noise makers is having a bit of time in the sin bin and another has just returned from the bin. The board was split wide open on agreement for the new constitution. Tells me something???

 

The other good one how the yes votes were garnered, there are snippets every where regarding the techniques used to gather them. See kasper mentioned one of the techniques.

 

What really needs to happen, an extra ordinary general meeting called and all these doubts placed on the table AND have questions from the floor not this rot,,only question on the agenda.

 

KP

 

 

[Happyflyer]

As for the early election, good on them for getting in and getting things happening. I can understand canning it if the new constitution failed getting throu asic but I see no problem as it stands. Also good on them for sending out the mag with the ballot form, I think that this should be something that should be done for each election.

Lovely to see a positive post. The sun must shine a lot in Quirindi, as opposed the doom and gloom elsewhere. Vote for your board member of choice, and then get out and enjoy some great RAAus flying.

 

 

[DWF]

......What really needs to happen, an extra ordinary general meeting called and all these doubts placed on the table AND have questions from the floor not this rot,,only question on the agenda.

KP

KP the current (new) constitution says:

 

"20.3 Before or at the Annual General Meeting, the Directors must, in accordance with law, make available information to the Members on the Company’s activities and finances during the period since the last Annual General Meeting.

 

20.4 The Chairman of the Annual General Meeting must give Members as a whole a reasonable opportunity at the meeting to ask questions or make comments about the management of the Company."

 

 

 

You do not need an Extraordinary General Meeting to ask your questions; you can do it at the AGM (on 15 Oct). And, as far as I can see, there is no prohibition on moving (and passing or not) a resolution.

 

If Rule 20.3 is complied with, and I see no reason why it should not be, then you should have enough information available to either satisfy your questions or to provide the basis for further inquiry.

 

 

 

DWF

 

 

[Keith Page]

For the extra special meeting, I had in mind - partake in a line of questioning of a subject if someone else had an interpretation they could ask as well. How can all that be done on the phone to the CEO?

 

You mentioned AGM in October, no. What I have in mind it will be the result of what happened at the AGM and it will be controlled like no bodies business.

 

KP

 

 

[turboplanner]

I can understand canning it if the new constitution failed getting throu asic but I see no problem as it stands.

How would that happen when you simply lodge your constitution with ASIC like every other country; ASIC aren't concerned about whether it is a good one or a bad one - that's determined by the results and the winners or losers are the shareholders.

What is a lot more relevant is that the people it affects should read it nd see if they got what they wanted, i.e. a sophisticated company keyed in to todays enivironment, or a cricket club.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have read and re read the existing constitution and I think it is very poorly worded. It hardly mentions what are the main objectives of RAAus and then goes on to mentionthings we have no interest in or any hope of ever being involved in legally. There should be an update of the constitution, even if it went back to the old version it would be a lot better. I am left wondering if the odd wording is to cover something that someone has as a hidden agenda.

 

Has anyone looked at the recent email from RAAus concerning "Disciplinary framework"

 

I agree with the wording for Illegal Activity, but am left wondering about the rest. Are RAAus going to discipline us for breaking the rules of flying. If so does CASA also have the ability to prosecute us on top of RAAus or do RAAus discipline us and CASA has no further interest.

 

I cannot see CASA letting RAAus discipline us for breaking the rules, without them getting involved. I would think that if RAAus became aware of us breaking the rules it is their responsibility to advise CASA. I am wondering if whoever made up the idea of disciplinary action gave it as much thought as the person who drew up the constitution, or are they going to have a new set of rules for us to comply with?

 

 

[Yenn]

I have just looked at the deed of agreement and see that RAAus has to investigate breaches o the rules and advise CASA, so they can pursue it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I have read and re read the existing constitution and I think it is very poorly worded. It hardly mentions what are the main objectives of RAAus and then goes on to mentionthings we have no interest in or any hope of ever being involved in legally. There should be an update of the constitution, even if it went back to the old version it would be a lot better. I am left wondering if the odd wording is to cover something that someone has as a hidden agenda.Has anyone looked at the recent email from RAAus concerning "Disciplinary framework"

I agree with the wording for Illegal Activity, but am left wondering about the rest. Are RAAus going to discipline us for breaking the rules of flying. If so does CASA also have the ability to prosecute us on top of RAAus or do RAAus discipline us and CASA has no further interest.

 

I cannot see CASA letting RAAus discipline us for breaking the rules, without them getting involved. I would think that if RAAus became aware of us breaking the rules it is their responsibility to advise CASA. I am wondering if whoever made up the idea of disciplinary action gave it as much thought as the person who drew up the constitution, or are they going to have a new set of rules for us to comply with?

I'm very pleased to see discussion on the Constitution coming to life.

 

I take it you are referring to the RAA Limited constitution, becaise life as it was in the days of the Association has ceased to exist.

 

RAA is one of the Self Administering bodies allowed to fly by CASA. As such RAA are expected to run their own business, and that includes Compliance and Enforcement ,so that should all be spelled out in the Constitution.

 

If not, then management are going to be shooting from the hip using their own thoughts, whatever they may be from year to year, era to era.

 

RAA should not be asking CASA to step in and do their job for them, because that's an admission they can't do their job, and thye results can be catastrophic when outside people, with less detailed understanding of the operations respond by getting involved and taking control.

 

 

[Admin]

Yes but isn't CASA the only ones who can take action other than RAAus dumping a member

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes but isn't CASA the only ones who can take action other than RAAus dumping a member

Well it depends on your Constitution.

If you have rules in it, and you have penalties in it, which could be suspensions for example, short one for minor breaches, bigger for serious breaches (just like this site), and you have an appeal system to ensure natural justice, and you follow that compliance and enforcement policy, you live it rather than just talk about it, CASA would never have a need to do anything other than preen themselves in front of the Minister and say "See, our Self Administration system is working!"

 

For a few years I acted as an Appeals Tribunal chairman for an organization with about 1500 A type participants, and it was one of the most interesting periods of my life.

 

You guys could do it if your put your minds to it.

 

 

[billwoodmason]

RAA already had penalties in place under the previous constitution. I personally know of someone who was suspended (six months) for an infringement into a military zone some years ago. I think the new constitution is a furphy - good governance is about the people running the association. The way this is leading I can see down the track fines will be introduced (ala CASA) to assist with the deficit and we won't be allowed or able to contribute to any debate on the issue.

 

If this were to happen we should resist this with everything we've got.

 

 

[2tonne]

As far as I am aware, a company cannot issue fines, so I can't see that ever happening.

 

 

[billwoodmason]

As far as I am aware, a company cannot issue fines, so I can't see that ever happening.

2tonne I sincerely hope you are correct.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Toll and parking companies seem to manage to get away with it.

 

 

[Yenn]

CASA has it all laid out, they describe the rule and then say how many points it will cost you and there is no comeback, if CASA say you committed the illegal action you have no chance of saying you did it without knowing, or you could not avoid it. No recourse to a court of law. I forget the exact wording in the regs, but it is spelled out regularly. I cannot see RAA being able to override that.

 

 

[2tonne]

Technically the parking companies are suing you for breach of contract and losses under that contract. The amounts can't be punitive, ie fines. One company demanded that I pay a "fine" and I wrote to them and told them to get stuffed, take me to court. I never heard from them again.

 

 

[2tonne]

By the way, I am not advocating that anyone should avoid paying parking charges! The letter I wrote was in relation to a specific set of circumstances and contract.

 

 

[turboplanner]

CASA has it all laid out, they describe the rule and then say how many points it will cost you and there is no comeback, if CASA say you committed the illegal action you have no chance of saying you did it without knowing, or you could not avoid it. No recourse to a court of law. I forget the exact wording in the regs, but it is spelled out regularly. I cannot see RAA being able to override that.

That is a good reason for members to have their own sanctions and appeals system so the culture and behaviour standard is good enough that CASA are going to focus on applying thier standards on charter and RPT pilots.

 

In the system I described before we were able to overturn decisions made by stewards if the evidence showed they were wrong, give suspended sentences if the stewards had been too harsh etc. a much better way to keep the culture to a high standard (now around 50 years fatality-free.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hello 2tonne and yen,

 

Yep if one is naughty RAAus will hand the information along to CASA and they deal with the situation.

 

However RAAus can with draw ones membership for so long for for what ever -- and it is illigal to fly while not being a member.

 

So I do not know how that one works.

 

KP