Runway line up at Non Controlled Aerodrome

[Jay_1984]

Hey guys,

 

Quick question that's been bugging me lately...

 

Now the regs say you can't take off until a preceding landing aircraft has vacated the runway, but what about just entering, lining up and holding at the threshold until the separation minimums are met (at non controlled aerodromes)

 

Have found the references regarding take off separation after preceding aircraft has taken off (ENR 1.1 41.2) and landing separation after preceding aircraft has landed (ENR 1.1 49.1) but this only refers to take off and landing, not lining up. I've always just waited until the runway was clear before entering and lining up but wondering if I don't have to if only lining up.

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Yes you can line-up and hold, but I wouldn't consider this to be wise.

 

There have been numerous accidents over the years with aircraft lining up and holding on the threshold, only to have an aircraft land on top of them.

 

Safest option is to hold in a position whereby you can see at least aircraft on final, then when clear line-up and roll in one motion. Radio is relied upon far too heavily, it relies on everyone having a serviceable radio, on the correct frequency, a competent operator at the end of it and no over transmissions.

 

I get nervous when given a line up and wait instruction at a controlled airport and certainly wouldn't do so at a NCTL.

 

 

[SDQDI]

For me I weigh up a few things before doing it. Firstly, just how far is the start of the runway from the holding point? If there is not much backtracking to do then I will happily wait at the holding point but if it is a looong backtrack then I will definitely consider following the aircraft in front of me. Secondly I consider just how busy it is and take into account whether there are aircraft in the circuit nearly ready to land, for example if it is immediately after an airshow or similar and there are a lot of planes ready to takeoff but none coming in then of course having multiple aircraft backtrack at the same time makes sense, but on the other hand if there are a couple of planes on base then it could cause problems which could be easily avoided by waiting.

 

each time will be a little different, I do however make a habit of asking the pilot in front if they are happy with me following them if I think it is a good option and haven't had a negative response yet but if I do I will be more than happy to wait, at the end of the day we want it to be as pleasant as possible for everyone.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

but what about just entering, lining up and holding at the threshold until the separation minimums are met (at non controlled aerodromes)

Just to clarify, my response was to the above question.

I agree with your comments SDQDI regarding backtracking, as opposed to sitting on the threshold with my back to final approach.

 

 

[KRviator]

So far as I am aware (always happy to be proven wrong, of course) there is no separation standard on the ground, other than what is written in CAR 166:

 

"(a) the pilot must maintain a lookout for other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome to avoid collision;

 

(b) the pilot must ensure that the aircraft does not cause a danger to other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome"

 

and CAR 168 (8):

 

An aircraft that is about to take-off shall not attempt to do so until there is no apparent risk of collision with other aircraft.

 

 

[cscotthendry]

If an aircraft has just landed but not yet vacated the runway, what is the advantage of lining up and waiting at the threshold? As someone else pointed out, this puts you at risk of someone landing on top of you. You won't be able to take off any earlier doing this and if you miss seeing a non radio equipped aircaft on base, you would force them to go around, assuming they see you lining up. As the other poster said, line up and then go straight into your take off roll. Be ready to take off before you line up.

 

I have seen people line up and wait, and from the perspective of being on late downwind or base it is a bit disconcerting if they don't radio their intentions.

 

 

[Jay_1984]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Totally agree with waiting on the taxiway. What sparked this was that on a few occasions I've seen others enter and line up after the preceding aircraft has landed and is half way down the runway. Then the split second the landing a/c has vacated, the a/c lined up hits the throttle and off she goes.

 

Didn't seem right to me but then wondered is this something I wasn't aware you could do. Looks like they were just impatient...

 

 

[ian00798]

So far as I am aware (always happy to be proven wrong, of course) there is no separation standard on the ground, other than what is written in CAR 166:"(a) the pilot must maintain a lookout for other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome to avoid collision;

(b) the pilot must ensure that the aircraft does not cause a danger to other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area of, or in the vicinity of, the aerodrome"

 

and CAR 168 (8):

 

An aircraft that is about to take-off shall not attempt to do so until there is no apparent risk of collision with other aircraft.

From AIP:

 

Take Of Seperation Minima

 

1. An aircraft must not commence take-off until:
    
    
    
    
    
   
2. a preceding departing aircraft using the same runway has:
    
    
   (1) crossed the upwind end of the runway; or
    
    
    
    
   
3. (2) commenced a turn; or
    
    
    
    
   
4. (3) if the runway is longer than 1,800M, become airborne
   and is at least 1,800M ahead; or
    
    
    
    
   
5. (4) if both aircraft have a MTOW below 2,000KG, the pre-
   ceding aircraft is airborne and is at least 600M ahead;
    
    
    
   

 

 

[*]a preceding landing aircraft using the same runway, has va-

 

cated it and is taxiing away from the runway; or

 

[*]a preceding aircraft, using another runway, has crossed or

 

stopped short of the take-off aircraft’s runway.

 

Landing minima

 

1. An aircraft must not continue its approach to land beyond the threshold of the runway until:
    
    
    
    
    
   
2. a preceding departing aircraft using the same runway is air-borne and:
    
    
    
   
3. a preceding landing aircraft using the same runway has vacated it and is taxiing away from the runway;
    
    
   
4. a preceding aircraft using another runway, has crossed or stopped short of the landing aircraft’s runway.
    
    
   

 

 

 

[*](1) has commenced a turn; or

 

[*](2) is beyond the point on the runway at which the landing aircraft could be expected to complete its landing roll and there is sufficient distance to manoeuvre safely in the event of a missed approach;

 

 

[recflyer]

Hey guys,Quick question that's been bugging me lately...

 

Now the regs say you can't take off until a preceding landing aircraft has vacated the runway, but what about just entering, lining up and holding at the threshold until the separation minimums are met (at non controlled aerodromes)

 

Have found the references regarding take off separation after preceding aircraft has taken off (ENR 1.1 41.2) and landing separation after preceding aircraft has landed (ENR 1.1 49.1) but this only refers to take off and landing, not lining up. I've always just waited until the runway was clear before entering and lining up but wondering if I don't have to if only lining up.

 

Thanks in advance

At a small private strip the other day at a fly inn the aircraft due to depart before us decided to do his run up right on the threshold. I found this very odd. I know the chance of being hit by a landing aircraft was low but just from a self preservation perspective I would personally stay off of a runway unless I absolutely have to be on one. That being said I'm only a junior pilot and might be wrong in this respect.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

The reality are there lots of different situations - some of which it is prudent to line up prior to the landing aircraft vacating. If it is one of those situations - The safest thing to do is to hold crossways off centreline so that you can see both down the runway and back up the glide slope.

 

That way if you suddenly spot someone on final who has managed to not be on the radio, or right frequency and not see you lining up you can scoot off.

 

 

[johnm]

its a bit like crossing the road ..................... 'the pedestrian'

 

sometimes traffic slows down for a pedestrian (some traffic likes to speed up - just to make it that much more exciting)

 

either way its a chance in 10,000,000 ? that certain traffic will deliberately try and run the pedestrian over

 

and probably more likely that traffic won't see the pedestrian .......... and smear 'em

 

 

[facthunter]

Lining up and holding could not be the "safest" of the possibilities. The best would be angled into the circuit traffic, stopped prior to the holding point. Generally doing any kind of checks prior to take of on the runway is discouraged, meaning any time spent on the runway prior to commencing the take off roll is bad (unless instructed at a controlled aerodrome and even that has caused confusion). You don't have to bring the plane to a stop before rolling for take off, and you add runway length required by doing so. Perhaps in the very early stages of instruction you might , just so the student doesn't feel rushed, but it's a bit hard to justify.. Nev