Who is the minister responsible

[Methusala]

When roading it to Sydney, the worst area of road is approaching the Mittagong checking station. The deterioration of the pavement in the approach lanes is so bad that I invariably stick to the right hand lane where the paving has not been virtually destroyed by trucks. This must be a practical proof that trucks are murder on roads when braking and manoeuvering.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Reportedly, about 99% of damage to roads is caused by trucks. Plus the roads are much more expensive to build due to truck requirements.The estimated damage to roads rises as the 4th power of weight i.e. double the weight causes 16x the damage.

A single truck causes as much damage as several thousand cars.

 

Source: Loads | Pavement Interactive

 

Note: That site appears to be selling road construction and design related software, NOT some raging Greenie or rail fanatic site.

 

Another study suggests that for lower strength pavement damage is the 6th power of weight i.e. double the weight causes 64 times the damage.

 

It's pretty well accepted in economics that transport by truck is massively subsidised by taxpayers and the cost paid by truck operators is nothing like the true cost.

Indeed.

 

Here trucks get massively overloaded, literally unrestricted and when there's a new building project the roads leading to it get destroyed in a matter of weeks. They run water cooling to the tyres to keep them in check.

 

In relation to Hargraves "weight 35 times plus" statement, if we compare with a 1.5 tonne car, a steer tyre on a heavy truck (Semi trailer) imposes 4x the weight, a drive tyre on a 4x2 truck imposes 3x car mass, a tandem drive tyre imposes 2.75x car mass and a triaxle trailer imposes less again..

Would you fly in a plane rated to one G?

 

Trucks move, their whole purpose actually, and have a lot more dynamic forces offered than what you wrote here.

 

Strict weight laws for trucks and the governing of them are applied in Australia to protect our roads from damage.

 

 

[skeptic36]

Strict weight laws for trucks and the governing of them are applied in Australia to protect our roads from damage.

Psst. :whisper:It's not working....

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Psst. :whisper:It's not working....

Meh, you're just a skeptic.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

When roading it to Sydney, the worst area of road is approaching the Mittagong checking station. The deterioration of the pavement in the approach lanes is so bad that I invariably stick to the right hand lane where the paving has not been virtually destroyed by trucks. This must be a practical proof that trucks are murder on roads when braking and manoeuvering.

My truckie neighbour reports numerous examples of unsafe road design. Narrow lanes, poor alignment and camber. When he's nearing his fatigue limit he often can't find a place to park hi B-dub off the road, so he has to keep driving, and somehow stay awake. Seems like road builders are miles behind truck builders.

 

 

[turboplanner]

My truckie neighbour reports numerous examples of unsafe road design. Narrow lanes, poor alignment and camber. When he's nearing his fatigue limit he often can't find a place to park hi B-dub off the road, so he has to keep driving, and somehow stay awake. Seems like road builders are miles behind truck builders.

They are catching up fast along the east coast route after Fatigue legislation came in about five years ago; with freecampers quick to take up truck spaces which blunts the initiatives somewhat.

The problemn for a heavy truck driver is that his mandatory stops are governed by his log book. Even with conscientious planning, there can be loading delays, a puncture etc. and a driver can find himself out of hours at a loaction unsuitable for parking.

 

The Fatigue Legislation combined with Chain of Responsibility Legislation now allows him to plan his stop earlier, without any pressure from freight forwarders or senior management. Some drivers still haven't got that message.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

They are catching up fast along the east coast route after Fatigue legislation came in...Legislation now allows him to plan his stop earlier, without any pressure from freight forwarders or senior management. Some drivers still haven't got that message.

He's pretty switched on, so I guess he knows this. Our roads need a few B-dub parks-with signs telling campers their actual purpose.

 

 

[Geoff13]

The Fatigue Legislation combined with Chain of Responsibility Legislation now allows him to plan his stop earlier, without any pressure from freight forwarders or senior management. Some drivers still haven't got that message.

A lot of freight forwarders and senior management still haven't got it either.

 

And how many prosecutions of people up the chain for fatigue related offences do you know of?

 

 

[turboplanner]

A lot of freight forwarders and senior management still haven't got it either.And how many prosecutions of people up the chain for fatigue related offences do you know of?

I knew of a few in the early days of the legislation; and it certainly changed the truck specifications I was involved in, removing sleepers from some doing local/shuttle work, changing sleeper sizes, introducing 1/2 sleepers where the seats had to fold down, and then scrapping that after the predicable rejection.

 

Found these cases within a few minutes:

 

Scotts acquittal

 

Getting caught in the chain of responsibility

 

Air Liquide

 

Lessons from recent chain of responsibility cases

 

NTC Page 4

 

http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/SWA/about/Publications/Documents/419/Workrelated_Fatigue_Summay_Recent_Regulatory_Development.pdf

 

Armstrong Legal – people who have to comply

 

Fatigue Management Obligations - Heavy Vehicles

 

Director convicted

 

http://www.bartier.com.au/publications/publicationDetail.aspx?PublicationID=42

 

Director convicted

 

Chain of responsibility: Heavy penalties imposed on operator for breach of fatigue provisions - Cooper Grace Ward

 

Conviction

 

Prosecution Details | Prosecutions Database | Department of Commerce

 

Conviction

 

PM - Truck company pleads guilty to driver fatigue offences

 

Conviction

 

PM - Truck company pleads guilty to driver fatigue offences

 

Conviction

 

Transport Workers Union Western Australia

 

Prosecution

 

http://www.ownerdriver.com.au/industry-news/1509/blenners-transport-to-face-court-in-october-for-alleged-fatigue-management-breaches/

 

NTC Page 4

 

http://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/SWA/about/Publications/Documents/419/Workrelated_Fatigue_Summay_Recent_Regulatory_Development.pdf

 

Armstrong Legal – people who have to comply

 

http://www.armstronglegal.com.au/traffic-law/heavy-vehicle/driver-fatigue

 

 

[Geoff13]

Scotts overturned on appeal

 

Blenners 240 charges dropped to 10 1 conviction overturned on appeal.

 

That is just the first two I looked at.

 

My point is not that I am against the system, but that the system (COR) is not protecting those it is designed to protect, (the drivers).

 

 

[Methusala]

People with a vested interest in the trucking industry often try the politicians trick, ie: Snow the conversation with a large amount of dodgy info and then sit on their hands, grinning and licking their lips. we saw the response to the Turnbull disgraceful destruction of the "pay the drivers a living wage" legislation.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Scotts overturned on appealBlenners 240 charges dropped to 10 1 conviction overturned on appeal.

That is just the first two I looked at.

 

My point is not that I am against the system, but that the system (COR) is not protecting those it is designed to protect, (the drivers).

Have a look at the convictions listed if that's where your interest is; they are steadily copping it.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Will do. As soon as i get to the computer.

 

 

[Geoff13]

People with a vested interest in the trucking industry often try the politicians trick, ie: Snow the conversation with a large amount of dodgy info and then sit on their hands, grinning and licking their lips. we saw the response to the Turnbull disgraceful destruction of the "pay the drivers a living wage" legislation.

You and I will have to disagree on that.

The ruling that was overturned was designed to force owner operators out of the market and leave the complete market to medium to large companies. Itt was basic and simple regulationthat supported anti competitive behaviour.

 

I will agree that those with a vested interest often try to turn the conversation to there advantage, the real problem there is that is difficult to see who really has a valis interest and who doesn't.

 

 

[DonRamsay]

But thousands of ministers standing around looking at the budget "black hole" and beating up on the poor but no-one to fix up the revenue black hole left by Howard and Costello.

Col, I understand you like to stand on the pinker side of politics and I know Howard/Costello were far from perfect but can you recall any other Australian Government in living memory (or ever?) that delivered 10 budgets in surplus and paid the Fed debt down to net nil and put a heap away in the future fund to pay for my pension when I run out of my superannuation?

Please give us a break!

 

The pinkos are very good at promising surpluses (Wayne nil from 4?) but then he was the "world's greatest treasurer". I wonder how many schooners that one cost him?

 

 

[DonRamsay]

And the Environment has to share a ministry with Energy. Easy to see where their priorities don't lie.

Wouldn't it be good to have one minister responsible for both? He/she has to balance one against the other where as a Minister for Energy could ignore environment and just go full bore on energy from any source and a Minister for only the environment could have us freezing in the dark with a perfect score on the environment.

 

 

[Methusala]

People who fall for the lie that,"governments are like households and have to live within their means" should read some basic economics and particularly the bit about government spending being "anti-cyclical". John Maynard Keynes was a giant among dwarfs who understood that the answer to boom and bust economies was to use the credit creation function of governments to stimulate economies when demand was depressed and to withdraw credit in a boom. This has the effect of more closely balancing the forces of supply and demand. I spent my time at secondary school being educated in real world subjects, taught from excellent texts; ie. Samuelson in economics and Messel for science. It is not too late to do some remedial reading and get up to speed on these vital areas of knowledge. More's the pity that electors see education as a luxury to be afforded by the well-off. But you know, I have friends who have found that sometimes private schooling means, "pay more, get less!"Regards all, Don

 

 

[coljones]

Col, I understand you like to stand on the pinker side of politics and I know Howard/Costello were far from perfect but can you recall any other Australian Government in living memory (or ever?) that delivered 10 budgets in surplus and paid the Fed debt down to net nil and put a heap away in the future fund to pay for my pension when I run out of my superannuation?Please give us a break!

 

The pinkos are very good at promising surpluses (Wayne nil from 4?) but then he was the "world's greatest treasurer". I wonder how many schooners that one cost him?

The future fund is for my super not your pension. If I went out and flogged off the family silver, the house, the car, the kayak, the pushbikes and my coin collection I too could deliver 10 years of surpluses which, by and large, was how Howard and Costello achieved theirs. If you cast your mind back to the early 80s Howard was a leper as a treasurer. Keep well.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I have friends who have found that sometimes private schooling means, "pay more, get less!"

I had a great experience with my 3 kids and glad I put them into Private Schooling.

 

The public schooling was terrific, Marsden State and High schools (Logan City, Qld), but the distractions of undisciplined kids was too destructive. In part to do with the social economic area though.

 

was how Howard and Costello achieved theirs.

Col, just curious if this is an anti-Howard/Costello thing specific or an anti-Lib thing?

 

If the latter, as I mentioned, both Parties have been in and out since and are as bad managers as each other hence where we are at today.

 

If a Howard thing, I am against asset sales also.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Col, I understand you like to stand on the pinker side of politics and I know Howard/Costello were far from perfect but can you recall any other Australian Government in living memory (or ever?) that delivered 10 budgets in surplus and paid the Fed debt down to net nil and put a heap away in the future fund to pay for my pension when I run out of my superannuation?...

All quite praiseworthy Don, but much of that was achieved by selling off public enterprises that were earning income for the government. Many people bought shares in those public assets by borrowing overseas.

Howard made a lot of noise about inheriting a National Debt of $160b from Keating.

 

When he was voted out it was over $400b.

 

 

[facthunter]

. Plenty of GOOD independent economics people will not accept such a glorious view of Howard and Costello's policies. The period they were in was one where the Financial experts underestimated the economic activity so a surplus just happens. What they DID with that surplus has been widely criticised. They just bought votes, and didn't invest it wisely.

 

The Next generation don't start from scratch either. They get a lot of infrastructure, some paid for and some not yet paid for. It will always be like that. The worse thing you can pass on is a place with no hope of a decent full time job and deficient in education. There are big transitions going on. The middle class which is involved with most economic activity is disappearing here and America. so the local economy suffers . Export is unreliable as we shall find out.

 

Debt...No one waits till they can pay cash for a house or a money earning thing like a tractor or truck. The economy works on credit and governments get the credit more cheaply than most with inflation paying a lot of it off. Some government also print money, which I see as pretty shonky. Australia's %GNP as debt is not large by comparison with most countries we like to compare ourselves with. Australia hasn't had a depression for one of the longest periods in modern times. Australia has a AAA rating from the most reliable ratings agencies. That's not imaginary and directly affects interest rates the government pays. At the moment we may lose that, and some of the blame rests with the Chaos of the Hockey first budget, and what went on after that. Even though the LNP are in power they still keep blaming Labor. It's about time they took some responsibility for their own performance. They have been the government for long enough for some effect if they knew what they are doing. The deficit has grown considerably under the LNP The idea they know more about money is BS . They may know about making it for themselves and selling off public assets so who ever buys them can charge like a wounded bull, and the ordinary voter/household pays in the neck. Poles and Wires is the biggest factor in electricity prices, (over 50%) and the myriad of "Providers" do no more than send a bill and add 20% to the bill for the privilege. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

. 1 Australia hasn't had a depression for one of the longest periods in modern times.

 

2 Australia has a AAA rating

 

3 At the moment we may lose that, and some of the blame rests with the Chaos of the Hockey first budget, and what went on after that.

 

4 Even though the LNP are in power they still keep blaming Labor. It's about time they took some responsibility for their own performance. They have been the government for long enough for some effect if they knew what they are doing.

1 Australia IS in a depression, relative costs and real unemplyment are terrible.

 

2 Yes it does, it has long term assets far beyond what we owe.

 

3 Nonsense, other governments, banks aren't that small minded, they know what we have in asset and aren't concerned about coming and goings of various Treasurers.

 

4 Oh c'mon Nev, it goes both ways, when have one not ever blamed the other for everything and as I keep saying, both have been in power for long enough terms in recent history to fix all those bad things the "Other" is responsible for ... but nothing changes.

 

 

[frank marriott]

WITH

 

 

[Methusala]

AND?!! Huh?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

All quite praiseworthy Don, but much of that was achieved by selling off public enterprises that were earning income for the government. Many people bought shares in those public assets by borrowing overseas.Howard made a lot of noise about inheriting a National Debt of $160b from Keating.

When he was voted out it was over $400b.

Both as bad as the other factually.