Type certification question

[Nightmare]

Hi everyone. I have in my possession now a brand new shiney RPC, and have been learning in and hiring a Lightwing GR912 highwing aircraft. I was just wondering, what other aircraft could I fly without going for a Type Certification? And if I do go for a type certification, what would be involved? It is a question that I've been meaning to ask my instructor....

 

And also, what is the RAA definition of "Type"?

 

Tony

 

 

[Methusala]

Can't help you...don't know what an RPC is!!!

 

 

[Nightmare]

Can't help you...don't know what an RPC is!!!

Recreational Pilot Certificate

[Roundsounds]

Suggest you contact the Op's /Deputy Manager. The new Op's Manual will clearly define "type". If you're going to hire a different type from a school you'll need to do some dual before they'll hire it to you. This would satisfy any training requirement for a different type.

 

 

[M61A1]

Here is the Ops manual definition of aircraft type...

 

Aeroplane undercarriage configuration, design features, flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia), stall speeds and normal/ emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.

 

 

[planesmaker]

Pretty vague list

 

 

[M61A1]

How so?

 

It's not a list, it's saying that "aircraft type" is defined by it's configuration and performance. Why on earth would you want to be more specific?

 

It jus t means, for example, if you have been taught in a Jabiru, then you may go and fly other aircraft with tricycle gear and similar handling and performance.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Here is the Ops manual definition of aircraft type...Aeroplane undercarriage configuration, design features, flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia), stall speeds and normal/ emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.

So for example, I should be able to fly any high wing tricycle undercarriage aircraft with a stall speed around 35kts and cruise speed 60 to 100kts? So most Jabirus, high wing Tecnams ok, but I may need some type training on a Skyfox Gazelle due to the different flap arrangement?

[M61A1]

I would suggest that is correct, although I don't see the Gazelle as a significant difference.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Flying a different type is pretty well managed even without referring to the ops manual. A school won't let you fly without a checkout. That check constitutes the type endorsement. An insurance company won't cover you if you are not checked on type generally. You need to be familiar with the POH for the aircraft you are about to fly. If a mate will let you fly his aircraft, great, but get a check with an instructor, its not onerous or hard. I believe the new ops manual will be more descriptive in this area. Any new design features will of course need formal training. You will be amazed at how just the change in shape or angle of the engine cowl of a different type will alter your perception of attitude.

 

 

[storchy neil]

agree happyflyer take a storch s with rotax 80 hp and storch s with 80 hp jabirus two different aircraft to fly neil

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

For instance if you learnt to fly in a Sonex there is nothing in the regulations to stop you flying any Jabiru or any other three axis control airplane with RAA rego

RAAus Ops Manual 2.07 para 3c requires "appropriate Type Training"

 

John

 

 

[SSCBD]

Have not checked the ops manual, However if you are a new shinny RAA pilot (nor being rude) and -

 

If you have only flown one type as you stated Lightwing GR912 Highly Recommend - for example if you jump into say a sling2 that it would be "madness" for you to fly it without doing some time and landings, engine failure practice with a instructor. They all have a different feel. I would recommend 20 mins upper air work and say 6 bump and grinds.

 

Also a "Must" is to sit in the seat FOR 30 TO 60 MINS and look at all the different and shiny switches and where they are hiding, and if radio, flight display is a different brand get briefing on how to use what you are not used to.

 

Just in my humble opinion.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Just out of curiosity, how would you get a type training on a single seater?

 

My original question was mostly in the direction of purchasing my first plane, not necessarily hiring one.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Appropriate type training means training in a three axis plane or a weight shift plane if doesn't mean jabiru or sonex etc

No it doesn't.

 

3axis and weightshift are different aircraft Groups.

 

A Jabiru and a Sonex are the same aircraft Group (3axis) but not the same aircraft Type. See the definitions section of the Ops manual.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[M61A1]

Just out of curiosity, how would you get a type training on a single seater?My original question was mostly in the direction of purchasing my first plane, not necessarily hiring one.

By getting some training in something of similar configuration and performance.

My example....I had flown Drifters and Skyfox CA22. I purchased a high wing tractor taildragger, with similar performance numbers to a Drifter. After doing a lot of work on it, I was familiar with the controls and systems. I chose an airfield that gave me a lot of space and spent some time on ground handling before actually taking off and spending some time on upper airwork, getting a feel, then carried out several practice approaches before landing. all uneventful, designed to be uneventful by prior preparation.

 

A Lightwing to a Skyfox Gazelle would be an easy transition.

 

 

[planesmaker]

Here is the Ops manual definition of aircraft type...Aeroplane undercarriage configuration, design features, flight envelope (e.g. high drag/low drag and considerations of inertia), stall speeds and normal/ emergency handling characteristics as designated by the manufacturer.

I agree, the vague part I am referring to was what do they mean by design features ? Or handling characteristics?

 

Sure, I am in favour of getting a check ride in any plane different to your usual ride. Not necessarily by instructor or call it type endorsement.

 

Type in my view( not necessarily what ops manual says) would be tricycle/ tail wheel, fixed pitch/adjustable pitch prop, fixed undercarriage/ retractable undercarriage. For these I would get an instructor.

 

I have opportunity to fly several different aircraft but usually don't only because I am not familiar enough with cockpit layout ie I need to sit and familiarise myself with the aircraft and flight manual. If an emergency happens on takeoff or during flight I need to put my hand on the right control or switch( fuel, Carby heat, flaps, etc) without having to look go it!

 

 

[crashley]

I have deleted my posts till I check with an instructor there seems to be a bit of confusion ( maybe just me ) on what constitutes a type as against a group

 

 

[Yenn]

What might be legal could be very different from what is sensible. I would think that if you are asking what can I fly other than what I have learnt on. it would be sensible to get checked out in any new aircraft.

 

At the other end of the scale there are pilots who do first flights in new aircraft. Obviously they cannot get checked out, but they will try to fly something similar and get as much info as possible on the plane.

 

If the plane you are thinking of flying has similar performance figures to what you know and if it looks very similar, it will probably fly in a similar fashion. Compare the area of the wing and also the tailplane, compare the length from wing to tailplane and if it seems similar to what you know OK, but if it appears either shorter or longer handling will be different.

 

If in any doubt ask for help on the airstrip from competent people, rather than taking the advice we give you as gospel. As you get more experience it will all fall in place.

 

 

[facthunter]

Total experience has a big effect on your adaptability. The differences are less likely to concern you, the more different types you have flown.

 

Wing loading, stall speed have a relationship. Low wing loading aircraft are not generally suited to gusty conditions. Flap extend speeds can be restrictive. Vle may be above turbulence penetration speed for the clean aircraft. Some flap settings are high drag and cause pitch change, as well. Some aircraft have a low rudder effectiveness with power off at slow speed . This will affect a tailwheeler directional control capability on landing. If the mainwheels are too far forward, the plane as a tailwheel type will be more directionally "twitchy". Some aircraft want to turn when power is applied. This has to be anticipated and managed, to be well controlled.

 

A tricycle gear that sits nose high on the ground will tend to wheelbarrow if landed fast. Dangerous in crosswinds. Some aircraft have high aileron drag, and need rudder application going into and out of turns. These are the sorts of things that have to be considered. Not a full list by any means but gives you some idea.. Nev

 

 

[Keith Page]

Just out of curiosity, how would you get a type training on a single seater?My original question was mostly in the direction of purchasing my first plane, not necessarily hiring one.

Look about for a good GR582 they are about and not expensive, that way you will be able to take buddie.

Regards,

 

KP

 

 

[spacesailor]

My problem too,

 

Un-flown new home-built aircraft plus low hour pilot =

 

You guess the outcome.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[M61A1]

Look about for a good GR582 they are about and not expensive, that way you will be able to take buddie.Regards,

KP

"Not Expensive" is always relative. Most people's "not expensive", is my "holy f*ck, it cost what?"

 

 

[Keith Page]

Ok.. Point taken $25k have a look about that Mark.

 

KP.

 

 

[Nightmare]

"Not Expensive" is always relative. Most people's "not expensive", is my "holy f*ck, it cost what?"

I saw a L/Wing GR582 go up for sale for $16k in the last few days. Anything under the price of a new 4WD I think is "not expensive"