Short final from the dark side

[Frankus1aust]

Yes just converted the PPL to RAA. Like taking off a straitjacket.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Glad you've seen the light mate. Welcome to the club. Please forget you were once a GA pilot and also that 'they' generally think

 

they're superior to RA pilots.

 

 

[facthunter]

Do they really Desky? There might be some, but I reckon a lot of U/L's are more demanding to fly than most things GA. Some are not game The little stuff scares them. The best hours are the ones that teach you the most and in my view they are the ones when you are instructing basic stuff in simple aircraft. People put aircraft into situations you never dream of doing yourself, at times. Nev

 

 

[Camel]

Do they really Desky? There might be some, but I reckon a lot of U/L's are more demanding to fly than most things GA. Some are not game The little stuff scares them. The best hours are the ones that teach you the most and in my view they are the ones when you are instructing basic stuff in simple aircraft. People put aircraft into situations you never dream of doing yourself, at times. Nev

You are very right Nev but the Ego GA headed people who mostly CAN'T fly very well bag RAA, every person I've heard bag RAA have serious issues flying a plane, I'm both and what ever flys in my book is all part of the same family.

 

 

[alf jessup]

There are both good and bad pilots in both classes, good are good and bad are average

 

Welcome to the darker side of Dark Frankus1aust

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Thanks Guys, actually i've been CASA medically grounded for quite a while and getting into a Jabiru for the RA conversion was not as fast to finish as I imagined. It really sharpened up my SOTPFS (seat of the pants flying skills). I've found if you can fly RA, you can fly. As much as I recently got a class 2 cert back (with pages of conditions) I'm thinking that the trouble and expense is not worth it. The only drawback with RA is getting an aircraft to rent. There are stacks of old warriors and 172's but harder to get a Jab or similar if you want it for a few hours.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Glad you've seen the light mate. Welcome to the club. Please forget you were once a GA pilot and also that 'they' generally thinkthey're superior to RA pilots.

Superior in that they are ready to spend double the cost for the same result? The Jab I have been flying during the conversion (I call it the plastic budgie) climbs and cruses faster than a club Warrior and has better vis.

 

 

[Aldo]

Glad you've seen the light mate. Welcome to the club. Please forget you were once a GA pilot and also that 'they' generally thinkthey're superior to RA pilots.

DP

 

This type of comment is what keeps the GA/RA b...s going we are all flying, I'm both but when flying I try to fly to commercial standard all the time. As a general rule RA pilots manipulate the controls better because they have to, but they generally fall down in the areas of radio, navigation (and by this I mean total reliance on an electronic form or not trained correctly) and air legislation there is also some who think the rules are not for RA and this continues to be a problem for RA and will do so until we get it sorted.

 

It doesn't matter whether you are GA or RA if you are not current and by that I mean doing at least 5 hrs (personally I don't think this is enough) a month then you are not competent and there are plenty of pilots in this category on both sides of the fence.

 

Yes just converted the PPL to RAA. Like taking off a straitjacket.

Don't forget that you have come from GA continue to fly as if you were GA and help drag RA to the standards we should be at, we then have a chance of getting controlled airspace privileges and everything else that GA has available to them.

 

Aldo

 

 

[mike_perth]

DPThis type of comment is what keeps the GA/RA b...s going we are all flying, I'm both but when flying I try to fly to commercial standard all the time. As a general rule RA pilots manipulate the controls better because they have to, but they generally fall down in the areas of radio, navigation (and by this I mean total reliance on an electronic form or not trained correctly) and air legislation there is also some who think the rules are not for RA and this continues to be a problem for RA and will do so until we get it sorted.

 

It doesn't matter whether you are GA or RA if you are not current and by that I mean doing at least 5 hrs (personally I don't think this is enough) a month then you are not competent and there are plenty of pilots in this category on both sides of the fence.

 

Don't forget that you have come from GA continue to fly as if you were GA and help drag RA to the standards we should be at, we then have a chance of getting controlled airspace privileges and everything else that GA has available to them.

 

Aldo

Well done couldn't have said it better myself

 

Can't we all just have fun and go flying irrespective of how we do it and under which license...

 

 

[M61A1]

Some are not game The little stuff scares them. The best hours are the ones that teach you the most and in my view they are the ones when you are instructing basic stuff in simple aircraft. Nev

I met an A320 driver a while ago who was gliding on weekends.....took one look at the Drifter and said that he didn't think he could that. Said he almost Sh1t himself when the window popped open on the Pawnee.

 

 

[facthunter]

The Drifter is a bit unique that way. There's not much around you or under you. I wasn't sure how I would cope with it having heard many stories about big iron types aversion to the open air. I did plenty of work in the DH 82 way back and NEVER liked hanging in the straps upside down, for some reason. Nev

 

 

[Pearo]

You are very right Nev but the Ego GA headed people who mostly CAN'T fly very well bag RAA, every person I've heard bag RAA have serious issues flying a plane, I'm both and what ever flys in my book is all part of the same family.

I dont bag RAA, and as a low time pilot I dont think I am better than RAA. In saying that, I have a mate who flies RAA and I will never get in a plane with him. I also have a good friend who is GA and I wont get in a plane with him.

 

On a regular basis, I see a well known RAA instructor who is/was teaching a few people here who is just as good as an GA instructor, infact a lot better than some GA instructors that fly out of my local airfield.

 

I have observed the same attitude with PPL v CPL. Not sure what is wrong with you guys, we all go flying, we all enjoy it. Not sure where the inferiority complex arises, but I have a good idea.

 

 

[Camel]

I dont bag RAA, and as a low time pilot I dont think I am better than RAA. In saying that, I have a mate who flies RAA and I will never get in a plane with him. I also have a good friend who is GA and I wont get in a plane with him.On a regular basis, I see a well known RAA instructor who is/was teaching a few people here who is just as good as an GA instructor, infact a lot better than some GA instructors that fly out of my local airfield.

 

I have observed the same attitude with PPL v CPL. Not sure what is wrong with you guys, we all go flying, we all enjoy it. Not sure where the inferiority complex arises, but I have a good idea.

I have no problem with what your saying but what do we do with people that stir up in aero clubs and groups ?bagging RAA, comments like they are not real aeroplanes and deterring young people from learning in them.

 

I have and will embrace all forms of flight including aero models and parachutes, they all fly.

 

 

[facthunter]

I think there is room for improvement in all sections. As I've said before many airline Pilots have never spun a plane. The problem starts at the bottom, initial training. MOST pilots have never spun an aeroplane, but with ultralight types you may potentially need more skill at unusual attitude recovery than in any other form of aviation activity (exc Gliding) There are plenty of pilots you shouldn't fly with, and plenty of planes you shouldn't fly in. Most just go for cheapest so what hope is there of my view being taken notice of? Nev

 

 

[alf jessup]

You must look after number 1 Nev

 

If everyone looked after number 1 flying would be much safer

 

Too many think it always happens to someone else

 

Good and bad in all disciplins of flying

 

Even the so called pro's get it wrong

 

All part of being human I guess

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Here is something on a slightly different tangent. Maybe it should be a new thread but it's related.....

 

I'm guessing there are a whole lot of pilots flying now that wouldn't be if we were stuck with the exclusive CASA GA system and rules. Also there are a whole load of RAA aircraft (many that can be VH registered) that now exist and a reasonable percentage from local manufacturers. So RAA is it's own industry with quantifiable benefits to the economy in a number of areas including export. The RA industry's' growth is attributable to a lighter touch in regulation, in a manner that allows it to coexist in pretty much the same airspace as the mainstream commercial industry.

 

Bearing in mind the above, maybe we should be pushing to extend the RAA fleet, license coverage, and range of products? The GA license and fleet is still much more expensive to fly and maintain and has been in a "holding pattern" for years. RAA is the growth area. (Correct me if I am wrong).

 

So to the punch line.... Should we be pushing the boundaries further and be lobbying for RA to be able to include a category of heavier aircraft? (Say 850 Kg max take off two POB). This might encourage the local development of more aircraft and bring more weekend warriors and trainee pilots across from GA. For example, one local manufacturer has a small twin based on an RAA aircraft, but it could only be VH registered due to the weight restriction on RAA. If we could open up the limitations a little (without extending the risks), we would get more RAA industry growth across the board.

 

This is not such a big jump. Let's look at operations for a moment... It's pretty easy to go the bash on CASA (me particularly) but they have opened it up a bit with the Recreational License changes. The GA Recreational License allows you to fly GA 4 place aircraft but with some restrictions, many of which can be removed with endorsements. The difference between this and RA is the medical. So there's a practical example of flexibility in the system.

 

As for the regulator as a whole, VH-GA still has the commercial operations territory and this is probably more suited to the CASA domain than "protecting" the flying public from us when we have our own professional management. In my experience, government protection, regulation and control produces extinct species. GA could go the way of the Tiger Quoll and the Night Parrot but maybe RAA is the insurance population?

 

Any suggestions? speaking from the position of total amateur, am I on short final to a swamp with this one?

 

cheers Frank

 

 

[facthunter]

A lot of those suggestions have been about, for a while. If we go complex we risk extra training complexity and costs. Australia is a big place to cover. Our planes do cross the Continent. You can do it easily in something like a Jab 230, and it is happening regularly.

 

A twin?? Unless it's capable of prop feathering it won't really fly one engine out. Assymetric thrust equals directional control big time. Usually full rudder at a speed high enough to enable the rudder to work, or you turn (and roll) when taking off at a critical performance situation.

 

Up the weight?.Yes 750 Kg's is enough, to carry 2 people, some gear and things like tie downs and enough fuel for at least 5 hours to empty, but why not build a Pietenpol type which might be a bit heavier? Simple is cheap and safe.

 

IFR and Controlled airspace introduces more training and more requirements on a reliable electrical system and TSO'd instruments, training and RECENCY. Consider transit rights (with a clearance and radio contact) as probably a more realistic aim. Single engine aircraft should fly over terrain with some consideration of being able to land somewhere. if the noise stops or weather threatens continued safe flight.

 

The low(er) landing speed makes this "outlanding" possibility a more realistic option. I could go on but that's enough for now. Nev

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Yes IFR and constant speed props are probably out of our viable remit. A bit more mass would give the designers more options. Here's an example of twin that departs from the old format. All the same, not likely to see it in RAA any time soon.

 

My point being, I wonder how far we could push this before we hit the wall of diminishing returns and are we happy with it as it is? I think the RAA is doing a good job though we all need to take responsibility for raising standards. Frank

 

 

[facthunter]

There were plenty of non featherable twins made. The jabiru version may fill a function as a trainer, It would be cheap enough. Avro Ansons Miles Gemini's DH Dragons and Draganfly's .etc won't stay in the air at "commercial payload" weights. Turbo props have "Auto feather" to act instantly and improve engine out performance.

 

The ESSENCE of our movement should be on simple.. affordable... reliable.. safe and low (relatively) cost.

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I expect the assymetric thrust engine out in the Jab would be quite low.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Yes IFR and constant speed props are probably out of our viable remit. A bit more mass would give the designers more options. Here's an example of twin that departs from the old format. All the same, not likely to see it in RAA any time soon.

They need to put pusher props on it, it couldn't look any uglier flying backwards

 

 

[facthunter]

Why? The factors are prop density, drag from the pod and off centre effect (distance from centreline). There would be worse I guess but if you did nothing, things would happen quickly. Rudder size would have to be increased and probably fuselage length, also to cope. All of a sudden that engine assembly becomes payload with drag all added to what mass you already have aboard with 2 plus fuel. I think they have the four cylinder motor and it's going to have to work hard. That would test out the cooling. Nev

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

The Jab twin is under the "Experimental" category. Probably never likely to see it in RA. the point about "simple.. affordable... reliable.. safe and low (relatively) cost" is a good one.

 

 

[facthunter]

The variable pitch prop was around for a short while,,, Main advantage at cruise above say 120 knots and would certainly help on take off. I didn't see much understanding of things like checking that the setting of the fine pitch stops permitted flight at a speed well above stall speed, say 1.3% Vs without over revving the engine. If they fail it's usually into fine pitch. EXPENSIVE and more MASS. No one's forced to fit them. Could be a safety issue

 

I'm not against turbo prop engines and even bypass jet, They are generally more reliable than piston engines. Thirsty ? Yep and most likely to remain so. Nev

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

The Jab twin is under the "Experimental" category. Probably never likely to see it in RA. the point about "simple.. affordable... reliable.. safe and low (relatively) cost" is a good one.

Yes and also I suspect that the RAA license is just for single engine A/C.