AOPA calls on CASA for private pilot medical reform

[kgwilson]

The list of RAMPC disqualifying conditions is such that if enforced I reckon that half of the public over the age of 50 and at least a quarter under the age of 50 currently driving would have their licences cancelled or restricted.

 

Have a look at them all. It's probably easier to get a class 2. The telling statement relating to these disqualifying conditions is "Has the patient EVER HAD". You may have had something once 30 years ago like a minor TIA & if you admit to it you're stuffed.

 

Recreational pilot medical disqualifying conditions

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

A couple of years ago, the SA government abolished the requirement for a medical test to retain your driving license between 70 and 75.

 

It was found that many people were giving up their driving licenses and becoming inactive as a result. This was hurting various charities, like meals on wheels, as well as contributing to illnesses caused by inactivity.

 

It is 4 times as dangerous, on mortality figures, to be inactive as it is to fly.

 

 

[visy]

The list of RAMPC disqualifying conditions is such that if enforced I reckon that half of the public over the age of 50 and at least a quarter under the age of 50 currently driving would have their licences cancelled or restricted.Have a look at them all. It's probably easier to get a class 2. The telling statement relating to these disqualifying conditions is "Has the patient EVER HAD". You may have had something once 30 years ago like a minor TIA & if you admit to it you're stuffed.

Recreational pilot medical disqualifying conditions

I'd be pretty pissed with myself if I was under 50 and had any of those conditions listed. A lot of them are entirely preventable with good lifestyle choices for those under 50.

 

 

[kgwilson]

The issue is in the response to the question have you ever had one of these conditions. Something may have happened completely out of the blue decades before and since that time you have now a healthy disposition and lifestyle with no problems since but you are disqualified based on an old historic event. Some people have generally normal blood pressure but suffer White Coat syndrome so if this had happened 20 years ago & you take the test now & its good, why should that historic one off event disqualify you?

 

 

[Yenn]

RAMPC is not exactly the same as class 2 medical.

 

If I try to get a class 2, I have to have some tests done because of my age. I can get a RAMP without doing those tests and therefore save the cost.

 

That means I cannot do aerobatics as PIC, nor take more than 1 passenger, fly heavier than 1500kg or do night VFR.

 

 

[turboplanner]

RAMPC is not exactly the same as class 2 medical.If I try to get a class 2, I have to have some tests done because of my age. I can get a RAMP without doing those tests and therefore save the cost.

That means I cannot do aerobatics as PIC, nor take more than 1 passenger, fly heavier than 1500kg or do night VFR.

Yes, there's a difference, to the advantage of some in GA, who otherwise would not be flying; it allows a tapering off of flying.

 

 

[tillmanr]

Interestingly, AOPA is also theAustralian Orthotic Prosthetic Association. Do we progress from one to the other?

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

RAMPC is not exactly the same as class 2 medical.If I try to get a class 2, I have to have some tests done because of my age. I can get a RAMP without doing those tests and therefore save the cost.

That means I cannot do aerobatics as PIC, nor take more than 1 passenger, fly heavier than 1500kg or do night VFR.

OK so what's the age required and what are the tests?

 

 

[Munger]

Facthunter... General aviation pilots have reduced by 34% and AVGAS has reduced by 35% and you cant see a direct correlation?Lets take a look at another chart... Since 2007 the number of aircraft being added to the Australian general aviation industry fleet has declined by 53%! Yes, you can attribute this to a range of factors. That said, you cant hide away from the fact that reducing pilot numbers means reducing aviation activity!

 

This is seriously bad news for our aircraft sales industry and the businesses which perform engineering and support. Fewer jobs and of course contributing to industry contraction.

 

[ATTACH=full]44769[/ATTACH]

Morning All,

I find this a very fascinating topic for a number of reasons, but primarily because I have been involved in the aviation industry since 1990. My personal biased perception is that the industry has been in a contiguous decline. I agree that the aviation medical situation is not rational, in particular when you look at risk mitigation vs. money spend as it is well know that there is a certain point at which you could spend the whole countries GDP and would not see any improvement. So let me be clear before I continue: I agree with the proposed changes and by default pilots taking responsibility to ensure they are fit to fly (as quoted above 99% of us do..).

 

BUT: Are aviation fuel used, new aircraft registrations, registration cancellations and pilot numbers an appropriate representation that the medical process is the 'primary factor'? What about ASIC's? What about second hand experimental aircraft maintenance? What about design modifications that would improve safety? What about fee's and charges? The list is long and distinguished....

 

 

This is the 'fresh of the press' line graph for personal savings in Australia. I cant help but notice that there is a matching declining trend slope to the pilot numbers presented above. Could it be that people simply can't afford the high fuel prices and consumption of GA aircraft? If that is coupled with a draconian aviation administration (who IMHO are in no way encouraging any progress in aviation), they it's easy to jump to the conclusion that people change hobbies and only the hard core will remain. Maybe it would be a good idea, in order to proof the impact of AVMED, comparing the charts to other common economic or industrial indicators?

 

I am thankful that AOPA has taken this step. Please keep it up!

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

The list of RAMPC disqualifying conditions is such that if enforced I reckon that half of the public over the age of 50 and at least a quarter under the age of 50 currently driving would have their licences cancelled or restricted.Have a look at them all. It's probably easier to get a class 2. The telling statement relating to these disqualifying conditions is "Has the patient EVER HAD". You may have had something once 30 years ago like a minor TIA & if you admit to it you're stuffed.

Recreational pilot medical disqualifying conditions

kgwilson,

The RAMPC is a HEAVY vehicle driver's licence medical (same as for commercial truck drivers) with additional CASA requirements. I think you'll find those questions are the same as for a Class 2 as is the medical standard. The only thing a RAMPC gets you is that your GP can do it (if you find he or she is willing and will still charge) and you save the cost of registering the exam with CASA. For that you you get a bunch of restrictions.

 

I looked at it but decided for the extra cost the Class 2 was desirable without the restrictions. My DAME is also my GP so I've got nothing to hide.

 

visy, you must be some kind of medical genius. A lot of those conditions are bad luck or genetics.

 

 

[facthunter]

The problem is even there IF you went in for a check and were found OK. It is on your record and you can't tick the box. I prefer to be checked if there's any chance something is wrong. Naturally you get a few false alarms, but my cautious approach is sensible I believe but I will be and am penalised because of it. This process rewards people who don't do the right thing and just say It's indigestion and will go away or such. Nev

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

The problem is even there IF you went in for a check and were found OK. It is on your record and you can't tick the box. I prefer to be checked if there's any chance something is wrong. Naturally you get a few false alarms, but my cautious approach is sensible I believe but I will be and am penalised because of it. This process rewards people who don't do the right thing and just say It's indigestion and will go away or such. Nev

And if you can't tick the boxes Your RAMPC must be done by a DAME and considered by CASA Avmed. If they pass you you've got a Class 2 anyway.

 

I did say the RAMPC was a bad joke on Australian aviators.

 

 

[facthunter]

In their early discussion they CASA stated if not able to tick ALL boxes the only default was to revert to the class two and make your case with avmed . Why confusion exists on this eludes me. McCormick had the final say and sign off on this and it was a complete flop and let down for Australian aviators. Years of work wasted and time moves on for the affected people, as effectively nothing of merit has been achieved. Those who are operating under these rules will be back to the class 2 if they go in for a check on anything or get a higher than normal prostate PSA reading for example. The effect is people DON'T GO for checks in that situation and won't visit their doctor if they have a dizzy spell or such. Not a desired situation at all. Nev

 

 

[Vev]

I agree Nev.

 

My own observations tells me that people do avoid accessing treatment owing to fears they will be caught up in the AvMed system and forced to spend a small fortune on tests and specialist or even be grounded. I say AvMed is not only ineffective in predicting or preventing future medical related flying incidents i.e. food poisoning, it is counter productive in driving good health management.

 

I feel there is reasonable augment to suggest AvMed could be a root cause in poor medical management ... In my opinion, CASA would do better to encourage pilots to develop more open relationship with the family GP's and their specialist to manage their health in a private and confidential way.

 

After all, we are all responsible every day to make the call if we are fit to fly ... surely we can be given the responsibility to manage ones health under self-certification using the services of my own GP's professional support.

 

Cheers

 

Vev

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

So people, stop complaining here and send in your response to CASA in support of the AOPA proposal.

 

 

[Yenn]

Mike. The age is 60 and from then on you need tests for Ser. Lip. ECG. and as per Coronary Heart Disease. Risk factor chart. I don't understand what those things are.

 

Have a look at 4.4 Special Reports and Tests Required for Medical Certification

 

I fall into the over 80 age group, so the Dame has to make a decision about any extra tests he or she would like to do. I cannot see any problems with my getting a class 2 medical, but the expense of any tests wanted and the expense of travelling a Dame is not worth it.

 

If the doomsayers here are correct we should soon see RAMPC pilots falling out of the sky, due to their having hidden medical problems. I wonder.

 

I do know of one pilot who has given up GA because of medical issues which would have stopped him getting a medical and he is now flying RAAus on the drivers licence OK. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see him have a medicl problem at any time.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Thanks Yenn, but take another careful look at the charts. Particularly the second one. The tests are for Class 1 and Class 3, not Class 2 as far as I can see.

 

 

[greybeard]

Thanks Yenn, but take another careful look at the charts. Particularly the second one. The tests are for Class 1 and Class 3, not Class 2 as far as I can see.

Problem is when you fall over the ECG stress test limit, even for class 2. Pretty easy to do, all you need to do is be over 60 for a male. Unless you have lower than average cholesterol or blood pressure to give a -ve score.

My DAME thinks it's a joke all of the testing, similar comments from the Optical and Stress test people. I've given up paying ~$1k/annum for a class 2.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Thanks Yenn, but take another careful look at the charts. Particularly the second one. The tests are for Class 1 and Class 3, not Class 2 as far as I can see.

Correct. I would of had to do all those tests from age 60. I Have a CPL and held a class 1 medical until age 60 but not needing the class 1, I have been doing class two for past 3 renewals. NO requirement for ECG or any of the other tests although DAME said he would do an ECG if blood pressure or other symptoms suggested he should.

 

Mike.

 

 

[Mike Borgelt]

Problem is when you fall over the ECG stress test limit, even for class 2. Pretty easy to do, all you need to do is be over 60 for a male. Unless you have lower than average cholesterol or blood pressure to give a -ve score.My DAME thinks it's a joke all of the testing, similar comments from the Optical and Stress test people. I've given up paying ~$1k/annum for a class 2.

Greybeard, take another look at the second chart. No CVD risk score has to be done (it is one of the extra tests) at any age for Class 2 "unless clinically indicated".

 

 

[Super Cub]

Not sure if this is somewhere else on this thread. But this is exactly what I was looking for.

 

Just print one out and sign, then email or Post it in.

 

Even those that are now medically fit to easily get a Class 2 should send one in. Because in a couple of years time, you may not get one, or only after a few thousand $ in specialists fees each year.

 

Think of the future, not just now.

 

http://yaffa-cdn.s3.amazonaws.com/yaffadsp/files/dmfile/AOPA_Chester_medicals4.pdf

 

 

[biggles]

A friend of mine was advised by CASA that, due to his medical history, he needed to be accompanied by another pilot at all times, if he wanted to continue flying. Not happy with their decision he decided to challenge it in the Victorian Administrative Appeals Tribunal and won. Hopefully he decides to go into print sometime, as it would make interesting reading ..... Bob

 

 

[greybeard]

Greybeard, take another look at the second chart. No CVD risk score has to be done (it is one of the extra tests) at any age for Class 2 "unless clinically indicated".

Well spotted Mike re: Class 2 exclusion.But I've been tripped with high blood pressure, under control within a few weeks of diagnosis, due to medication taken, nailed with CASA audit, then type 2 diabetes, no medication, just diet control. All tests for the last 4 years clear but CASA still insisting on ~$1k/annum for additional tests.

So, the medical tests are good in one way, but given my DAME (and previous DAME) think they are unwarranted and both are happy to sign off my class 2, CASA experts are concerned that i'll drop of the perch without the additional tests.

 

With hindsight, I'd recommend going to a different GP than your DAME, getting normal health checkup, then deciding if you want to let CASA in on your health history.

 

 

[Icarus]

Here are the options CASA are considering. You have till the 30th of March to put your 2bobs worth to CASA

 

Review of medical certification standards | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

Options

 

There are six options that may be considered for future consultation, although further options will be considered on the basis of responses to this discussion paper.

 

The options are:

 

• continuing the existing medical certification requirements and arrangements (status quo)
   
   
  
• re-assessing risk tolerances which inform medical certifications standards in the context of industry and community expectations
   
   
  
• examining and streamlining medical certification practices across the various certification standards, including the approach to assessing incapacitation risk
   
   
  
• aligning certification standards across the sport and recreational sectors by revising the recreational aviation medical practitioner’s certificate to make it both more accessible to pilots and more widely applicable
   
   
  
• developing a new medical certificate for the sport and recreational sectors which considers overseas approaches with elements of self-certification
   
   
  
• mitigating the risks of any changes by applying operational restrictions.
   
   
  

 

 

Look at the sneaky wording of point 4. "to make it more accessible and more widely applicable'

 

in other words we want RAA RPC to need RAMPC.

 

They are red hot aren't they?

 

 

[Jaba-who]

With hindsight, I'd recommend going to a different GP than your DAME, getting normal health checkup, then deciding if you want to let CASA in on your health history.

Being a doctor and a member of several aero clubs I am always being asked advice about getting spruced up for medicals and I have come to the conclusion that you should never ever ever have your gp as your dame.

 

Your dame is testing you for a specific list of criteria, whose relevance to your safety is shown to be near zero but are required for an administrative purpose only.

 

He only needs to know what you want to tell them. You must be truthful about answers but never ever embellish or give complex scenarios or backgrounds to your story. Simple answer .... no more.

 

He has then no responsibility to manage your health or fix you up and no responsibility to go looking for health issues. That's what you gp is for.

 

He is there to simply examine you and see if you pass the casa criteria for having a licence. He is not your friend! He is a casa delegate.

 

If he suggests having an investigation that is not required - refuse ( politely).