Aircraft charity raffle

[scotsman]

Afternoon all

 

Just curious as to whether anyone runs anything similar to the below charity aircraft raffle in Oz. This event has been going for years in South Africa and has been a real success with a bunch of upside for sick kids in fulfilling/funding their dreams that they write in.

 

Aircraft Raffle

 

Do you think that for an LSA/RAA type aircraft there would be appetite and sufficient volume for the numbers to work out for this type of thing over here?

 

Cheers

 

James

 

 

[spacesailor]

I would think an aircraft that fits both civil & RAA would be better than just VH registered,

 

my two cents worth. ( fifty dollars a ticket I'm interested ) count as ................ 2 sold

 

spacesailor

 

 

[scotsman]

Makes sense spacesailor, the big question for me is to whether enough volume of ticket sales could be generated to purchase an aircraft with a decent enough amount of residual money to go to the chosen charity.

 

 

[spacesailor]

The dearest raffle I know sold 75,485 tickets at $66.40 each for an island resort, I didn't buy one. 1 winner in NSW.

 

A $100,000 aircraft plus training plus charity residue would need a LOT of tickets at $50.

 

(did the calculator bit but couldn't understand the answer) 2,000?))

 

spacesailor

 

 

[scotsman]

Mmmmm....the maths definitely works out in SA (tickets are 25 dollars each) and in general the aircraft seem to be refurbished certified types that would probably sell for around 60/50k Aussie. They are capped to 12000 tickets but I don't know how many they sell in total. The maths on those numbers with only a fraction of the total sales works out well with a substantial donation to the selected charity. I wonder if it would be possible to sell 2000 to 3000 tickets from the outset.

 

The training element was only included as a potential prize in the last couple of years as more people have started to subscribe to the raffle/charity. Looking back it appears that they started out with a cub as the prize probably when they were building interest it the raffle.

 

Could always raffle the training instead? How much does PPL and the recreational licence training cost these days? I would be nice if it could be done.

 

 

[facthunter]

In a small place like Australia aircraftwise, on a given day, how many people are likely to want a specific plane? A course of training is much more flexible but even that is locality centred, and not practical for the major part of the country. Nev

 

 

[spacesailor]

As I understand:

 

The RAA flying club's don't charge for academic training, only actual flight training.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[spacesailor]

Once a person has their own aircraft, the practical training is that much of a lower cost, they should be able to afford the academic cost more easily.

 

I think the price of such a valuable prize would warrant more than $25. and less chance of selling insufficient tickets to cover all eventualities.

 

spacesailor.

 

PS any chance of including accommodation, for interstate winners.

 

 

[scotsman]

In a small place like Australia aircraftwise, on a given day, how many people are likely to want a specific plane? A course of training is much more flexible but even that is locality centred, and not practical for the major part of the country. Nev

Hi Nev

 

Training doesn't have to be locality centred as it can simply be like the SA version which is X amount of funds which can be used at any appropriately accredited training place whether for initial licence or advanced training.

 

On the SA version a bunch of people enter it for the charity side and if they win an aircraft that they don't want it doesn't really matter as they simply sell it and use the money towards whatever they want. For example I have stopped fixed wing flying and still enter in SA even though there is never a helicopter in the raffle.

 

I wonder how many active recreational and GA pilots there are in Australia just to get an idea of the potential population?

 

Cheers

 

J

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Each State has its own raffle regulations. For example Qld Competitions, raffles, bingo and other charitable games | Queensland Government covers raffles etc run by not-for-profit organisations for charitable purposes. An aircraft raffle would most likely fall into Category 3 - gross above $50,000, the prize has to be at least 20% of the estimated gross. The licence fee runs from $400 to $3,300.

 

 

 

The fund raising is enhanced by getting the supplier to provide a wholesale, discounted or free article which is then advertised at its Recommended Retail (the value of the prize). Second hand is also acceptable, but there has to be a valuation by a recognised expert in the field. The prize must be delivered within one month of the draw. A combination of aircraft and training is acceptable, as is a choice (eg Jabiru VH or RAA registered + training) to the same value.

 

 

[scotsman]

Really helpful FV, I didn't know that there was state based legislation for it but I suppose that it makes sense. Are you a lawyer by any chance?

 

I am leaning towards a main prize of say 30k of proper accredited training (so even if you have your licence you can go on to use it towards PPL, CPL, or the collection of other endorsements and training add ons that are out there). Seems like it would be simplist option to get it off the ground and because of the lower dollar value for the licence make it easier to 'break even' and contribute meaningfully to the charity.

 

I suppose that it also then becomes attractive to the people who are not already in a aviation circles as an entry point. Also is more inclusive from a fixed wing, gyro, microlight, heli perspective which again makes it more likely to have more tickets purchased.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I think a tangible asset would be more attractive, rather than training, which you would have to arrange to suit the locality of the recipient, or if a training organisation is nominated, then the locality is restricted. Offering a "brand new Plane VH registered or RAA registered plus goodies = RRP $100,000" will appeal to more people as you can keep it, trade it or sell it. The charity can approach the factory for a cheaper price as they can claim off tax and also get lots of free publicity. The winner then gets to choose which (VH or RAA) and the charity settles the bill and "delivers". The option is there for the winner to negotiate with the factory and maybe trade up to a more advanced model. A plane would be more attractive. Once you have your RAA certificate and cross country, there is little more "training" needed and training isn't something you can on-sell easily.

 

 

 

First find or set up a charity (not-for profit incorporated organisation) with the stated aim of supporting your cause (sick kids, old pilots, cyclone victims ...), approach an aircraft factory, or second hand aircraft dealer, and do a deal eg $100k RRP plane at $75k with publicity scheme, work out the costs to run the raffle (licence $1,000 + printing $500 + advertising $2,000 + sundries etc), prize must be at least 20% of gross = max ticket sales $500k, set realistic ticket price - surprisingly people will more likely pay $50 if they get 5 tickets than one at $50, remember that there will be unsold tickets in books sent to "agents", set a realistic closing date and allow enough time for all sold ticket butts to make it back to base. Draw with plenty of fanfare to keep both aircraft provider and future ticket buyers keen, follow-up publicity. Pass the proceeds (less reasonable costs) to the Cause. Keep good records - they may be audited. Be aware that ticket sales may not result in what you expected - so who carries the loss?

 

 

 

I have vague recollections of an Australian plane raffle, but not sure of the outcome. With today's social media ticket buyers could come from overseas too, so a clause that the aircraft will be "delivered" in Australia and some form of secure on-line ticket purchase will boost sales.

 

Sue

 

 

[SGIAN DUBH]

Afternoon allJust curious as to whether anyone runs anything similar to the below charity aircraft raffle in Oz. This event has been going for years in South Africa and has been a real success with a bunch of upside for sick kids in fulfilling/funding their dreams that they write in.

 

Aircraft Raffle

 

Do you think that for an LSA/RAA type aircraft there would be appetite and sufficient volume for the numbers to work out for this type of thing over here?

 

Cheers

 

James

I am not sure whether the Flying Fraternity in AUS/NZ are a lot less Penny Pinching than they are in the UK but we just had an example of a MW5 Sorcerer that because the UK Microlight fraternity treat every penny as a prisoner it had remained unsold for ages. It was for sale for £2000.00 ( $ 3483.00 AUD )

 

To sell it as another Microlight was due to replace it, we discussed raffling it off..... the decision was to sell 59 numbers @ £35.00 each ( 59 numbers is how many balls are in the Euromillions Lottery & once every ball was sold the next lottery draw it would be the bonus ball number that won the microlight ).

 

Believe me, selling 59 numbers @ £35.00 each seemed like we had asked them to spend a fortune on a 59 to 1 Punt !!!!

 

I looked upon it as a bit of a laugh & £35.00 is about as much as a cheap night out costs here ;-)

 

When it was won, the lucky winner then complained " it is going to cost a lot of money to get it across to where I am "

 

So a person had just won a microlight funded by 58 unlucky ticketholders & yet he was moaning that he was going to have to spend a bit more money to get his £35.00 investment home !!!!

 

So unless you are extremely confident about selling 2000 tickets I wouldn't even contemplate it...... as to selling 12000 tickets in South Africa, I would bet they haven't sold 1200 since the idea started.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bats]

Way back when I had a passing involvement with the SA version, transporting Miss SA to do the draw at an airshow. Created a huge buzz of excitement and on that occasion they sold out the last few tickets on the day - and yes I bought one and have done a few times since despite the logistical challenges! Given the relative sizes of the aviation fraternity in Aus vs SA, I'd say that the idea has definite legs. Just look at the popularity of the RSL etc.s house prizes, they are generally worth less than $2million, ie less than the minimum lotto draw, but most people I know get far more excited over the tangible prize.

 

As an aside, can you imagine the logistical challenges on a small airfield crammed with thousands of people, you're in front of the crowd line in a convertible, awaiting the imminent arrival of the prize aircraft and this little voice whispers in your ear, "I really, really need to wee...."

 

 

[merc]

I have vague recollections of an Australian plane raffle, but not sure of the outcome.

There was an aircraft raffle in Australia 30+ years ago, a Cessna 310 I think, tickets , from memory $200.00.

 

I bought a ticket but the money was eventually refunded and the raffle cancelled, didn't sell enough tickets.

 

 

[scotsman]

I think a tangible asset would be more attractive, rather than training, which you would have to arrange to suit the locality of the recipient, or if a training organisation is nominated, then the locality is restricted. Offering a "brand new Plane VH registered or RAA registered plus goodies = RRP $100,000" will appeal to more people as you can keep it, trade it or sell it. The charity can approach the factory for a cheaper price as they can claim off tax and also get lots of free publicity. The winner then gets to choose which (VH or RAA) and the charity settles the bill and "delivers". The option is there for the winner to negotiate with the factory and maybe trade up to a more advanced model. A plane would be more attractive. Once you have your RAA certificate and cross country, there is little more "training" needed and training isn't something you can on-sell easily.  

 

First find or set up a charity (not-for profit incorporated organisation) with the stated aim of supporting your cause (sick kids, old pilots, cyclone victims ...), approach an aircraft factory, or second hand aircraft dealer, and do a deal eg $100k RRP plane at $75k with publicity scheme, work out the costs to run the raffle (licence $1,000 + printing $500 + advertising $2,000 + sundries etc), prize must be at least 20% of gross = max ticket sales $500k, set realistic ticket price - surprisingly people will more likely pay $50 if they get 5 tickets than one at $50, remember that there will be unsold tickets in books sent to "agents", set a realistic closing date and allow enough time for all sold ticket butts to make it back to base. Draw with plenty of fanfare to keep both aircraft provider and future ticket buyers keen, follow-up publicity. Pass the proceeds (less reasonable costs) to the Cause. Keep good records - they may be audited. Be aware that ticket sales may not result in what you expected - so who carries the loss?

 

 

 

I have vague recollections of an Australian plane raffle, but not sure of the outcome. With today's social media ticket buyers could come from overseas too, so a clause that the aircraft will be "delivered" in Australia and some form of secure on-line ticket purchase will boost sales.

 

Sue

Hey Sue, agree that it is more attractive but my worry is that to get a 100k plane that you will need to sell a shed load of tickets just to break even and actually contribute something to the charity. Doesn't mean that it isn't possible though. I would definitely want to run an online tickets sales element.

 

On the loss side just like the 310 raffle that Merc referenced just like the SA version if it doesn't meet the minimum tickets sales the purchased tickets would have to be reversed. There would obviously be losses on the licenses, marketing and reversal fees etc which would have to be quantified as best as possible to understand the risk prior to going in.

 

Merc 200 is a chunky amount per ticket but I appreciate that it is a function of the volume which you think that you can sell. I guess that if the price is too high that you get a lot less of the opportunistic/impulse purchases.

 

Sgian Dubh (fellow Edinburgh person) the SA version definitely sells more than 1200 a year as 1200 x R250 = R300k which will not pay for the type of aircraft they raffle let alone donate anything for charity. As Bats said they have sold out before but one key function is ticket sales and advertising at public air shows which boosts the total population of purchasing people outside of existing aviation folk. I am not privy to the amount that they donate to charity every year but if it wasn't material I doubt that they would keep doing it for the past 18 years. Maybe I should be asking them (as it is non commercial and non competitive) how they administer their one and how they got it started.

 

Back to Sue's point at the start Sgian Dubh I think that the prize has to be suitably attractive to get people over the line. I guess I could ask my current employer (one of the banks) to also support it. I use a couple of the audit firms frequently so I could twist their arm to audit it for free.

 

Bats the SA raffle prize aircraft recently has been formally drawn at the Rand Airshow which also generates a lot of 11th hour sales and a bit of hype and the aircraft is 'on display' at the show which makes it really tangible. I have been buying tickets for the last five or six years....no joy yet although Miss SA did sit in the helicopter I was flying (sadly not whilst I was in it).

 

The Airshow scene seems quite quiet in NSW (only been in the country for a year) so I don't know if that would be a potential draw back. Is my perception correct?

 

At least thre should be significantly more pilots in Australia than SA which would help from setting a foundational base of potential buyers.

 

 

[Bats]

https://www.aircraftraffle.co.za/ Here is their website, I see 12,000 tickets max with a minimum of 4,000 to proceed. That's R3 million max income, minimum R1 million. (Exchange rate roughly 10:1) Obviously someone has to underwrite the aircraft, the advertising, licences etc and in their case it is a big aviation broker that has backed it since day one. I still like the idea, as a novelty it shouldn't be too difficult to gather free publicity and I'd be up for a few tickets at $25 - $50. Probably better at the lower end of the scale. I know I spend more at the RSL at $5 a pop than at Yourtown at $15.

[Nobody]

The EAA have a raffle every year at Oshkosh. A few years ago the prize was a beautiful Boeing stearman. It had been magnificently restored and looked great. I think they get an old aircraft and restore it every year with lots of volunteer labour.

 

The money raised goes to support their young eagles program. They sell tickets at Oshkosh and don't have trouble selling lots. People were queued up 3 deep like a bar in the CBD on a Friday night when I was there. It was more a donation than real chance of winning but I bought a ticket just in case....

 

 

[spacesailor]

2500 tickets at $25.00 = $62,500, not enough for a new toy. $40 tickets will just make the $100,00, I think. A quick internet search gave me "1974 Cessna 310Q SIDS Compliant. at $90,000+GST",

 

The cost of owning such an aircraft, to the winning ticket holder, could & probably would be off-putting ( insurance+hangaradge),

 

Much better a smaller trailerable single engine, could even be as small as "powered-parachute /trike or gyro on trailer.

 

Just my observation. Could a second-hand item get GST exemption, when used in this way, and the donor getting tax deduction.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[scotsman]

Spacesailor I was thinking of something that is either useable to a ppl or ra licences person and probably not certified like a sling, Savannah, jabi, tecnam etc so not a piper or cessna (bit more affordable when it comes to running costs and especially maintenance). I might open up a separate thread to poll the level of interest and what aircraft type people would be most interested in.

 

Bats I think that I could probably get someone to fund the start up costs but I am concerned as to whether there will be enough interest to make the raffle a success with a chunk of money for a specific charity. Probably only one way to really find out.