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facthunter Well-known member

facthunter

Posted
Posted

Scott, It's a pretty dicey situation you got into. Applying wrong aileron is a really bad idea. Ok it's a bit of an instinctive steering wheel response, which can not be allowed to happen. Gusts make the whole thing difficult for sure and with a fair crosswind component you have a problem in any case.

 

The (any) plane and pilot combination have an actual LIMIT where you will run out of control authority.

 

If you TRACK down the centreline accurately on the approach you will be better able to gauge what surplus control you have available.

 

Crab with a bit of wing down into wind ( don't use one or the other. Make it a combination) In gusty conditions I would carry a bit of extra speed. (don't overdo it ) and use some power as well to give more rudder and elevator control and speed control and more instant engine response. If the wind component extends right to the ground, and with a place where the country is barren it may well not diminish much you will best consider landing very much onto the into wind wheel only and roll along wing down, only limited by your plane's geometry ( almost Wing tip contacting, if you are really serious) until you cannot hold the other wheel off the tarmac as you slow up. You will end up with FULL aileron into wind which is just what you need and IF the plane wants to weathercock you will have Full (in this case, left rudder). If it's not quite doing the trick you have two choices . Sit it out till it comes to a standstill and wear the consequences or hit the power and get more rudder authority and milk the mouse and go around. Your Go pro or whatever it is , gave a clear picture of what was happening. I hope this makes sense for you. Nev

 

 

  • Like 1
bexrbetter Well-known member

bexrbetter

Posted
Posted

Just a thought, with the crash at Essendon and the public scrutiny going on, this may not be the best thread at this point in time displayed in Australia's most popular light plane forum with (the wrong) people poking their noses around.

 

Just saying.

 

 

rrogerramjet Well-known member

rrogerramjet

Posted
Posted
OK, warts and all, here's my contribution.This was at Broken Hill. We flew from William Creek to BHI non-stop and with very strong tailwinds (~50kt). The wind on the ground at BHI was 24kt gusting to 32KT straight across the main runway. The cross strip was not an option as it was closed due to heavy rain the night before.

When I finally got all three wheels on the ground, the plane weathercocked into wind and tried to spear off the runway. I instinctively corrected with aileron (car driving habits die hard) instead of the rudder. That resulted in the right wing coming up. As soo as I'd done it I realised it was wrong and tried to correct with opposite aileron. All that did was lift the left wing and then we were flying again. We instantly ran out of airspeed and stalled back onto the runway from about two feet in the air.

 

So..perfectly normal landing then ? ;-)

 

 

  • Haha 1
rrogerramjet Well-known member

rrogerramjet

Posted
Posted
Scott, It's a pretty dicey situation you got into. Applying wrong aileron is a really bad idea. Ok it's a bit of an instinctive steering wheel response, which can not be allowed to happen. Gusts make the whole thing difficult for sure and with a fair crosswind component you have a problem in any case.The (any) plane and pilot combination have an actual LIMIT where you will run out of control authority.

If you TRACK down the centreline accurately on the approach you will be better able to gauge what surplus control you have available.

 

Crab with a bit of wing down into wind ( don't use one or the other. Make it a combination) In gusty conditions I would carry a bit of extra speed. (don't overdo it ) and use some power as well to give more rudder and elevator control and speed control and more instant engine response. If the wind component extends right to the ground, and with a place where the country is barren it may well not diminish much you will best consider landing very much onto the into wind wheel only and roll along wing down, only limited by your plane's geometry ( almost Wing tip contacting, if you are really serious) until you cannot hold the other wheel off the tarmac as you slow up. You will end up with FULL aileron into wind which is just what you need and IF the plane wants to weathercock you will have Full (in this case, left rudder). If it's not quite doing the trick you have two choices . Sit it out till it comes to a standstill and wear the consequences or hit the power and get more rudder authority and milk the mouse and go around. Your Go pro or whatever it is , gave a clear picture of what was happening. I hope this makes sense for you. Nev

And all this well intentioned blah says is, gain experience, test yourself, but *Conditions Apply: do that too far/too much and you may end up dead.

 

Practice is great, until that practice becomes an emergency.

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

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  • Agree 1
rrogerramjet Well-known member

rrogerramjet

Posted
Posted

No offense, and I'm sure Ive done it myself at least once...maybe twice "oh hell that doesnt seem right"...

 

2 minutes out "Holy crap" and then shortly after "wow" , self talk setting yourself up for failure, or at least some heightened concern/stress you don't need.

 

hey, Im no psychologist, but next time how about "Gee, there is some strong cross wind, so I am going to have to drop a wing, crab it in, and really have my rudders on the play here"

 

So maybe thats exactly what you were thinking, but if I'm a passenger and I hear 'Holy crap" from the pilot, what am I now thinking?

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

 

 

  • Helpful 2
Jabiru7252 Well-known member

Jabiru7252

Posted
Posted

I landed my Jabiru in hot (>30°) and gusty conditions and found my wind tip almost hitting the ground. Won't fly in that crap again.

 

 

  • Like 2
Deskpilot Well-known member

Deskpilot

Posted
Posted

When learning to fly, my instructor made me try a strong cross wind landing which I totally f***ed up. He took control, went round and said, if the conditions are too bad, use all the available space to get down. One the threshold, he had the plane waaay over to the right, beyond the runway markers and then he turned into the wind, landing quite safely on the grass, crossed the runway and onto the grass the other side. A bit bumpy but a safe landing in horrible conditions. So, when you find yourselves in a similar situation, forget the center line, use the space that is available.

 

 

  • Like 4
Deskpilot Well-known member

Deskpilot

Posted
Posted

Nothing wrong with the system and nothing wrong about thinking outside the square (see my avatar)

 

 

  • Agree 1
cscotthendry Well-known member

cscotthendry

Posted
Posted
When learning to fly, my instructor made me try a strong cross wind landing which I totally f***ed up. He took control, went round and said, if the conditions are too bad, use all the available space to get down. One the threshold, he had the plane waaay over to the right, beyond the runway markers and then he turned into the wind, landing quite safely on the grass, crossed the runway and onto the grass the other side. A bit bumpy but a safe landing in horrible conditions. So, when you find yourselves in a similar situation, forget the center line, use the space that is available.

That might not work if there are lights down the side of the runway, which in this case I'm pretty sure there were.

 

 

cscotthendry Well-known member

cscotthendry

Posted
Posted
No offense, and I'm sure Ive done it myself at least once...maybe twice "oh hell that doesnt seem right"...2 minutes out "Holy crap" and then shortly after "wow" , self talk setting yourself up for failure, or at least some heightened concern/stress you don't need.

hey, Im no psychologist, but next time how about "Gee, there is some strong cross wind, so I am going to have to drop a wing, crab it in, and really have my rudders on the play here"

 

So maybe thats exactly what you were thinking, but if I'm a passenger and I hear 'Holy crap" from the pilot, what am I now thinking?

 

Fly safe

 

Ramjet

Yeah, all well and good, but I was just about s*itting my pants in the conditions. and that was after about four hours straight flying. I fully expected to roll the aircraft up in a ball, but I was pretty sure I'd be able to get the thing on the ground gently enough that the missus and I would be able to walk away from it. I definitely thought our "Outback adventure" was going to come to a forceful end there at Broken Hill. No offense taken or intended, but not everyone can remain as cool as you, in such situations.

 

 

  • Like 2
facthunter Well-known member

facthunter

Posted
Posted

I don't know if many people get to experience an absolutely on the limit crosswind. When you do It might be the hard way . It of course varies a lot with type ,and your individual effort on the day. Gusts add an element of the unknown so you can get caught out. The thing I constantly emphasise is don't let the wind get under the upwind wing. Many are frightened to land on one wheel which is the only way to keep a wing down . On an appropriate day get out with a good instructor and practice unless you only fly in the morning or evening in a very light wing loading aircraft, which are not very suited to gusts and strong winds.

 

With most U/L's x wind components of say 18Kts+ at ground level would be risky. It's hard to put a figure on it but that's my best guess. A lot of GA planes have quite low X wind figures in the POH. ( that's for a reason) You can't bank many low wing or Biplane types due the wing geometry. If they have dihedral that doesn't help when both mainwheels are on the ground either.

 

Touching down as slow as possible limits the energy to do damage. In a T/W, if the rudder isn't adequate you might weathercock into wind as you slow right up but that's not usually going to cause you great angst. IF your tailwheel is set up right and the stick right back, it should do the job at that stage as you can steer with it but not if you use the brakes hard. Nev

 

 

Old Koreelah Well-known member

Old Koreelah

Posted
Posted
...The thing I constantly emphasise is don't let the wind get under the upwind wing. Many are frightened to land on one wheel which is the only way to keep a wing down... You can't bank many low wing or Biplane types due the wing geometry...

The outer wing is pretty much parallel with the ground when a Jodel is up one wheel.

 

Bent wings are best.

 

 

Jabiru7252 Well-known member

Jabiru7252

Posted
Posted

The strongest cross wind I have experienced was while flying the Tobago at Parafield. I am not sure of the wind strength, maybe 30 knots but I was holding 30° drift on the downwind leg and on finals. The good thing was that the wind was steady, not all over the place. The landings were quite good.

 

 

  • 2 weeks later...

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