Cirrus EFATO in Iowa - CAPS/BRS save

[Garfly]

ASN Aircraft accident 13-AUG-2016 Cirrus SR20 N314BF

 

From this LiveATC audio file it seems the pilot began a turn-back "... engine failure, comin' back" and then thought better of it "... pullin' CAPS."

 

Cirrus engine trouble and CAPS deployment at Des Moines | LiveATC.net

 

The technology that saved family from perishing in plane crash

 

 

[Garfly]

Images of Cirrus CAPS save:

 

 

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Looks likely that the failed engine will be salvageable to fly again, which can't be said for the rest of the plane. Sod's law, the culprit get away with it again.

 

 

[hihosland]

CAP system put him in the power lines

 

perhaps they'd been better to fly the aircraft into the accident

 

Although I have no idea how much open space was available

 

if essentially none then CAP would be the best option

 

 

[ben87r]

Anyone able to tell me the minimum height for deployment?

 

 

[Bats]

Manual I've seen says 400' in level flight or glide, just under 1,000' in a spin - these are absolute minimum demonstrated height agl.

 

 

[SDQDI]

BRS Parachutes | FAQ

 

This says they should be effective between 260-290 feet agl but seems to depend on forward speed.

 

I don't remember which brand of brs it was but I recall one recommending it could be pulled on short final on a forced landing to reduce forward impact speed, it could have been pipistrel but I'm not certain.

 

 

[robinsm]

How many cirrus does that make that have failed and needed to rely on Parachutes etc. Methinks if they fixed the problems with the plane, the parachutes would become redundant.

 

 

[Bats]

What are these problems that Cirrus need to fix? I'm battling to understand how you can lay the blame for a Continental throwing a rod or similar at their door.

 

 

[Garfly]

A couple of well informed articles on the subject:

 

What's right with Cirrus pilots? - Air Facts Journal

 

Fatal Cirrus crashes are way down - thank the parachute - Air Facts Journal

 

 

[fallowdeer]

In calendar years 2014 and 2015 Cessna sold 298 Skyhawk 172s. Cirrus sold 547 SR22 and SR22T models.

 

There are a lot of Cirrus aircraft out there.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Continental engines seem somewhat fragile but they are usually flogged mercilessly by owners who use them to clock up big miles.

 

 

[Yenn]

Cirrus use ballistic chutes for one reason. They cannot demonstrate recovery from a spin. If they could do that they would be able to fly without the chute.

 

If the min height for deployment in a spin is 1000', what do you do if you are at 999'?

 

I don't think I would be sitting there saying goodbye world.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Maybe he could have glided it down, maybe he would have tried to turn around and stalled it. The point is, no one died.

 

 

[Nobody]

Cirrus use ballistic chutes for one reason. They cannot demonstrate recovery from a spin. If they could do that they would be able to fly without the chute.If the min height for deployment in a spin is 1000', what do you do if you are at 999'?

I don't think I would be sitting there saying goodbye world.

That's not quite right. Think about it from the other direction. If you are going install the parachute anyway and POH lists the recovery method is to deploy the parachute, then should you have to demonstrate spn recovery as part of the certification? The FAA thought that was reasonable and certified on that basis. They have demonstrated safe recovery from a spin and did so as part of the EASA certification. They haven't done the full spin matrix of all configurations.

 

The heights in the manual are the demonstrated heights and just like maximum crosswinds usually the aircraft can cope with more(or less height) it just hasn't been demonstrated as such.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Cirrus is a pretty fast airplane, trying to land one at 80 knots with 3 passengers away from a runway would be a nightmare, lot easier to pull the handle.

 

 

[Yenn]

I was under the impression that in the USA, which is the home of Cirrus, that they could not achieve the spin recovery required by FAA and that is the reason for the chute. I have no experience of EASA requirements.

 

 

[Garfly]

For those interested in this debate here's yet another Dick Collins article which has a very exhaustive discussion thread after it.

 

What's wrong with Cirrus pilots? - Air Facts Journal

 

The general consensus seems to be that the main reason for the poor Cirrus accident record has less to do with the design and more to do with human factors; that the typical 'mission' for the plane is as a serious transport tool - not so much just for fun-flying - so that it's often being flown single-pilot IFR in marginal weather and by pilots with marginal skill levels.

 

To save having to trawl through the whole thread, here's a typical SR22 fan commenting on the venerable 'parachute-in-place-of-spin-resistance' charge:

 

"The spin comments are really very silly. Just a little bit of research will show that the Cirrus can recover from spins just fine…in fact, it had to in order to be certified in Europe. Cirrus simply chose not to spend the extra money to show all the certification data to the FAA due to the fact that they spent engineering money on the chute and that met the standard. When it costs like a bizzillion dollars to certify a new design, a million here and a million there add up to real money. The cirrus is not some crazy handling plane that is just dying to spin you into the ground…and impossible to recover. I’d venture to say it’s just as good or bad as any other high performance single."

 

 

[facthunter]

Once you pull the chute you play no further part in what happens. Transport aircraft will never have them on present information. Fit one, if it's your thing but don't force them on others and don't doctor information either way for or against the case. They don't work in a lot of situations.

 

Apart from engine failure, it's probably covering poor pilot performance either at the planning or ability level. Planes don't stall and spin without a lot of encouragement or incorrect C of G or icing etc. There may be a lot of Cirrus sold but there's a lot for sale too, pre loved.. Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

At least one persom has been seriously injured by using the chute. The plane came down into a dam and there was no deceleration from the undercarriage collapsing, then the wing hit the surface, rather like hitting concrete. The sad thing was the pilot would probably walked away from it if he had not relied on the chute. He was just feeling sick so decided to not risk trying to land it.

 

 

[Bats]

Always surprises me that a technical pursuit like aviation has a relatively large streak of conservatism. Cirrus, after a fairly dismal period of poor accident rates in the early days, has done a lot about training pilots converting onto the aircraft and last time I looked at stats, was doing better than comparable older designs and had been for several years. There is plenty of factual information available on the spin certification issue, without having to rely on old wives tales or posts from enthusiasts. Short story is they are perfectly capable of recovering from a spin, however in certain circumstances may require non-standard control inputs to do so, hence the US authorities declining at first. The BRS or CAPS as they style it, is as much a point of difference for marketing purposes, as it is a necessity for certification and as I understand it, the design could have been modified to achieve certification without it. It goes without saying that in certain circumstances you may be worse off under the chute - powerlines being an obvious concern, but it is equally true that there are circumstances where without it you're not likely to survive. It does give you the choice though.

 

And no, I don't have a Cirrus, not am I likely to ever want one - low n slow plus short grass strips is more where my interests lie, but I do admire someone who has taken on the established big boys at their own game and made a success of it. Vive la difference'!