Electrician Needed

[boleropilot]

G'day Y'all,

 

I have a 582 WB Drifter hangared at Boonah that I am in the process of changing motors (was silver head premix, now blue head auto mix).

 

During the process I am doing some cockpit renos and adding some bits, e.g. strobe. I would also like to move the battery from the nose to an alloy box mounted behind the pilots seat.

 

The electrical work required for the above is far beyond me so I need someone with the knowledge/training/experience to assist me - I am happy to pay in dollars, red wine, beer, etc.....

 

Anybody who can get to Boonah without drama (some of you have aeroplanes, apparently) please contact me so I can finally get my baby back in the air.

 

Cheers,

 

Dave Tonks

 

aka Boleropilot

 

 

[planesmaker]

Dave I am concerned about your plan to move the battery and the effect on the Weight and balance. I hope you have done the calculations. Tom

 

 

[boleropilot]

G'day Tom, thanks for your concern. Because I am a big fat fella, I am already flying 455 with a 500g weight zip tied to the tailwheel bracket - that little addition has made a huge difference to the trim-tab setting. The zip ties are checked carefully during pre-flight and are replaced regularly, and the weight is substantially secured with aircraft quality tie wire.

 

I am also aware that some other Drifters have the battery fitted somewhere around the c of g of the aircraft, mainly for access reasons - these are possibly aircraft that have had electric start added at some time. The battery in 455 is buried down in the nose of the aircraft. From my experience with both real and RC aircraft I am of the opinion that moving the battery back toward the c of g of the Drifter (about a metre) is not going to have any effect on the weight and balance of the aircraft other than improving the balance by reducing weight in the nose - the negative is the fact that as it will be located just behind my fat arse it will give the same result as me putting on another kilo (heaven forbid), but with the added advantage of losing a kilo from the nose!

 

At this point in time I am using a considerable degree of up trim to maintain level flight. I am also aware that some Drifters (e.g. the two at Clifton) have fittings in the nose to add weight for lightweight pilots - that also indicates to me that the balance of the aircraft can be safely adjusted by adding/deleting weight at the nose as required.

 

I am of course open to all comments with respect to the planned modification. I am aware it will affect the 25 registration but that is not of concern at this point - if a future owner wants 25 rego the modification is easily reversible.

 

For those of you who are considering making comments about me simply reducing the size of my fat arse, you don't need to bother - my wife is taking care of that issue on a daily basis!

 

BP

 

 

[crashley]

WOW a 500 gm weight zip tied to the tail wheel how legal is that What happens if it falls off or comes loose .I think you need to get someone who knows about weight and balance involved real quick before an accident occurs I believe moving several kilos aft by a metre or so is going to have a real effect on balance If you are using considerable up trim to maintain level flight something is drastically wrong and needs to be sorted

 

 

[Robbo]

I am already flying 455 with a 500g weight zip tied to the tailwheel bracket - that little addition has made a huge difference to the trim-tab setting. The zip ties are checked carefully during pre-flight and are replaced regularly, and the weight is substantially secured with aircraft quality tie wire.BP

I would immediately stop flying this aircraft and have it checked over by a trained aerospace engineer otherwise it won't be long before we are talking about another fatal accident.

 

You are asking for trouble as you don't seem to understand the engineering and balance side of things, not having a go at you but someone using zip ties to balance the aircraft and then wanting to move the battery to the back again is an accident waiting to happen.

 

Please seek expert advice!!!

 

 

[facthunter]

Relocation of a substantial mass like a battery, is a common way of improving the Cof G, in an aircraft. IF the mass near the tail is "required" to get the CofG in the "allowable " range, you may be able to dispense with it by moving the battery, so that is a good idea. Doing it properly and legally involves a reweigh and document it in the aircraft logbook. Nev

 

 

[boleropilot]

thank you

 

 

[fly_tornado]

have you done a dry run to move the battery to confirm that its going to fix the CG problems?

 

 

[planesmaker]

Nev has answered well and I agree with him. Please do a proper reweigh of the aircraft, the time and cost? is a very good investment. Tom

 

 

[cscotthendry]

I agree with the other posters about the weight and balance. It is something that you need to take great care with as it is one issue that can really bite.

 

If I were doing this, my first port of call would be to find a reference for the W&B that is stated in terms of the CofG relative to the main wing. It should also give you a method for setting the plane up (position wise) on the ground to do the weight measurements. Before you make ANY changes, it would be very useful to know how the plane is currently rigged and what effect your weight and a possible passenger's weight will have on the balance of the plane.

 

You say that you fly with lots of up trim. That suggests that there is something not quite right in either the setup, or the rigging of the plane. I would investigate that first before you start making further mods to the plane.

 

I know that you want to get on with this, but when it comes to aviation, faults and mistakes are very unforgiving. Take your time and be careful about this. I don't want to be reading about you or your passenger in the news...

 

 

[Guest nunans]

A counterweight tied to the tail is better than a weight tied to the nose. It it falls off you just end up more nose heavy which is safer than ending up tail heavy!

 

If your 500g at the tail is say 3m behind the c of g and your battery is 3kg and on c of g then you could move the battery back half a meter and remove the 500g from the tail

 

In any case moving the battery back and getting rid of the counterweight makes sense then check the ac again for c of g

 

 

[Yenn]

Before you do anything about W & B you need to understand the theory of how it works. I would suggest that you need help in both the understanding and then geting sny changes done in an acceptable manner.

 

Failure to do so could well make you a recipient of the darwin award.

 

 

[boleropilot]

some interesting comments - all read with appreciation - but - "aerospace engineer"? I've ordered a visit by one from NASA, apparently I'll need to sell the house to pay for it.....the Drifter is worth $15k tops - I might cancel it and talk to the local guys with thousands of hours accumulated on Drifters.

 

on a more refined note - I have printed this out:

 

Tutorial: weight and balance

 

and I intend to contact the Drifter factory at Kupunn (good luck with that, they all say in unison) for balance and C of G data

 

and g'day nunans, thanks for your comments, much appreciated. one thing I would like to stress is the connection of the infamous weight to the aircraft - if that weight separates from the aircraft it will be because it has broken up into little tiny pieces (along with the pilot) - as I don't normally fly into huge cumulonimbus, I feel I am fairly safe there. Honestly, folks, those zip ties are far king HUGE and are backed up by numerous strands of aircraft tie wire - the thought did occur to me to just tie it on with a piece of string, but I changed my mind.....

 

BP

 

 

[Yenn]

Have you weighed the plane and if so what were the numbers you came up with, including the distances from the datum and also the most forward and aft C of G limits

 

 

[facthunter]

A drifter without a person in the front seat, is probably tail heavy and out of the range. The figures you use must relate to your plane. A light pilot needs an extra weight in the seat. Nev

 

 

[c722352]

Dave we have just been through the horror, that can be getting the weight and balance right in a drifter. keeping it within the authorised limits is crucial. if its not, and something happens then you could have a heap of explaining to do. If its balanced reasonably well, you should not need the weight in the tail unless of course you are over 125kg. There is a weight and balance spreadsheet on the RAAus site which can be modified to enable you to see just what your CofG is with and without your 500g plus fuel battery movement etc. Need any help get in touch

 

 

[Geoff13]

some interesting comments - all read with appreciation - but - "aerospace engineer"? I've ordered a visit by one from NASA, apparently I'll need to sell the house to pay for it.....the Drifter is worth $15k tops - I might cancel it and talk to the local guys with thousands of hours accumulated on Drifters.BP

Maybe you could ask the girl on the weighbridge, she should know how to do it.

 

 

[boleropilot]

thanks C722532 - nice to see someone on this forum with intelligent and helpful comments instead of the vindictive, belittling garbage spewed forth by some here...

 

not mentioning any names, but they pose like a weighbridge girl with their elbow on the bonnet of their 'aircraft'....

 

 

[Robbo]

instead of the vindictive, belittling garbage spewed forth by some here... not mentioning any names, but they pose like a weighbridge girl with their elbow on the bonnet of their 'aircraft'....

Re: Aerospace engineer that I mentioned, I often type this when im talking about aviation out of habit. For what it is worth I have been involved in "aerospace" engineering for many years and have been involved in the design and development of various general aviation aircraft.

 

Along with experience in aircraft maintenance and avionics, the moment someone mentions weight and balance my sub conscious takes over, I guess I have seen to many aircraft crash due to people disregarding advice and doing something there own way.

 

Don't take it personaly boleropilot and if I have offended I do apologise.

 

 

[boleropilot]

No Robbo, you haven't offended me in the slightest, and I really do appreciate your kind words.

 

I had an idea that's what you meant, and I have a plethora of highly skilled and experienced aviators to ask for assistance in these matters, so I'm good in that respect. As per my post above, I've downloaded the RAAus tutorial on weight and balance and will be contacting the Drifter Factory at Kupunn for weight/balance/C of G data.

 

You can be assured that I won't be slipping any surly bonds until I get the problem sorted. Thanks again for your interest and demeanour.

 

BP

 

 

[Nobody]

Bolerpilot,

 

It is common knowledge that words written on on forums can be slightly misinterpreted. When people talk to one another in real life their facial expressions,tone and hand gestures all convey some of the subtext of what they are saying. Typed into a forum this is missing.

 

I don't think that anyone is deliberately trying to belittle or be vindictive, rather I think they speak from a point of concern for your well being. If we as a group of aviators want to reduce the significant accident rate then we need to speak up to help others who may not understand the danger of the situations they are in and that is what I think that the posters above were trying to do. They have either experienced the issues that come with a rearward CofG or have read and heard stories form those that have.

 

My own rear CG of G experience was in a glider. I was taking a friend for a fly and she was smaller than others I had taken previously. We were exactly on the rear CofG limit and well under the MTOW. On tow all was good but once off the pitch control forces were very much lighter and the aircraft was significantly more twitchy. It took a lot more concentration to fly. In the landing flare there was almost no "feel".

 

She was probably only 10kg lighter than others that I had taken for a fly but it made a huge difference, we we still within the aircrafts envelope but the handling was radically different. I have a very healthy respect for the rear CG limit following this and dont want to experience an aircraft outside its envelope. It could be impossible to fly.

 

The FAA have quite a good guide to weight and balance. With the information in it you could estimate how much the CofG would change when you move the battery and weather this is completly compensated for by removing the tail weights you currently have.

 

It is available here:

 

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/FAA-H-8083-1.pdf

 

Nobody

 

 

[Dick Gower]

Please do not trust your life and limb to the structural integrity of a zip-tie Dave.

 

There is some serious and knowledgeable advice in the above responses.

 

Good luck,

 

Dick.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's allowable to calculate the new CofG from a KNOWN old one with changes due to moving something. This only works if the old CofG and weight is valid, and you use the original datum and the same units for the alteration. It's much safer to start with removing that stuff at the tail, check Cof G and see if moving the battery will get it in the range you need to comply with the design's requirements and then do another actual reweigh to confirm. Weights at the extremes of the fuselage will affect spin characteristics so it's not just a matter of getting the Cof G in the required range. The battery has to be there anyhow, because you need one, but the weight at the tail may not be required. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Please do not trust your life and limb to the structural integrity of a zip-tie Dave.There is some serious and knowledgeable advice in the above responses.

Good luck,

 

Dick.

500gm even at 4G, is still only 2kg!

 

 

[freddy]

Hello All,

 

I have just had a quick look at the posts and might just add a few thoughts.

 

• The battery was originally placed there to get the C of G within range of standard pilot weights for drifters in those times (69-92kg) after fitting the heavier 582's.
   
   
  
• 455 must be one of the early 582's, and so I imagine it is either 25 or 55 reg?
   
   
  
• you are not supposed to modify these aircraft (CAO 95.55). This has your and any passengers safety at heart. As you have heard from all the above responses, there are many factors involved when you modify, and some of them we don't even think about until someone mentions them.
   
   
  
• I know that the method of Weight and Balance for drifters was originally to literally balance them on a stick and measure where the balance point was relative to the datum, this is pretty impractical when you have a belly tank fitted. I would certainly be getting the C of G measured properly to ensure that it is within limits for you and making sure that these limits are placed in a prominent place in the cockpit. There is a real and significant danger to others who may fly 455 in the future if it is sold or lent. This is the voice of experience as many years ago I flew a modified drifter at Raglan and ran out of elevator because the owner had modified it to suit his weight. Luckily I could get a slight pitch control with engine thrust sufficient to get me back on the ground.
   
   
  
• Tying a weight to the tail gives me the shudders.
   
   
  
• It is good to see you will get more advice on the do's and don'ts.
   
   
  
• Please accept this a friendly word from an old jockey who has been flying these beasties for the better part of 30 years and would like to continue doing so and encouraging as many as possible to partake in the joys of drifter flying safely.
   
   
  
• Should you wish any further input or would like to ask questions, please feel free to ask.
   
   
  

 

 

Freddy