VFR into IMC

[Bats]

An old, old story, but quite well told here. Some of you who have done ATC tours may have heard a tape featuring a Jab, somewhere in NSW from memory, that did something similar.

 

I Learned About Flying From That: Asking For Help

 

 

[coljones]

An old, old story, but quite well told here. Some of you who have done ATC tours may have heard a tape featuring a Jab, somewhere in NSW from memory, that did something similar.I Learned About Flying From That: Asking For Help

The Jab is innocent!! It was merely keeping up with the pilot.

 

 

[poteroo]

We could reduce this inadvertent VFR into non-VMC weather by exposing student pilots to rainy, low cloud days before they head off on longer distance cross country flights. Having a low time pilot fly around rainshowers while pointing out visibility distances and partial horizons is very useful. Same with flying toward a bank of cloud and demonstrating how to miss going into it by controlling rate-of-descent and speed so that a safe turn is possible before it turns into non-VMC. I think it helps pilots to be shown just what 3nm, 2nm, and 1nm visibility looks like, how it's negotiated and how to make a safe turn to avoid going too far into it. Until instructors begin to teach more of these life-saving aspects: more pilots are going to find themselves in non-VMC weather and at great risk of losing control.

 

happy days,

 

 

[DrZoos]

Totally agree....my most valuable learning has been on ordinary days...

 

 

[SSCBD]

We could reduce this inadvertent VFR into non-VMC weather by exposing student pilots to rainy, low cloud days before they head off on longer distance cross country flights. Having a low time pilot fly around rainshowers while pointing out visibility distances and partial horizons is very useful. Same with flying toward a bank of cloud and demonstrating how to miss going into it by controlling rate-of-descent and speed so that a safe turn is possible before it turns into non-VMC. I think it helps pilots to be shown just what 3nm, 2nm, and 1nm visibility looks like, how it's negotiated and how to make a safe turn to avoid going too far into it. Until instructors begin to teach more of these life-saving aspects: more pilots are going to find themselves in non-VMC weather and at great risk of losing control.happy days,

Back when I was teaching and completely against the regs, four CASA guys I knew told me –

 

“You make sure you are popping these students into cloud and showing them how to get out of it and how dangerous it is and be scared enough never to go near it”.

 

That was the unofficial approval to do something was that was directly against the regs but totally condoned under the table by the Casa guys who had practical flying experience and not a bunch of pen pushers. By the way one of these guys was number two in the system, who I used to have coffee with every now and then.

 

I also doubt many of the RAA instructors DO NOT have the experience to do this with any safety as they have never been IFR rated.

 

So we have a chicken and egg problem again.

 

We have many faults with the training system that need to be addressed, and that is certainly one that should be on top of the list.

 

 

[storchy neil]

yes take a learning student into cloud may seam like a good idea but not all students would have the ability to handle the situation

 

yes I was shown how rain and cloud does impede you ability to think because I wanted to learn how I personally would react if I was stupid and put my self in that situation

 

yes my instructor was IFR rated

 

after that lesson bloody ground is good place to be but it never stop me from flying made me very wary of rain and cloud neil

 

 

[facthunter]

It's pretty difficult to find those kinds of days. It can be pretty marginal and the student is apprehensive, more so than I am for obvious reasons. I don't feel it's fair if the student is not thoroughly comfortable with what is happening. With ways of blacking out the outside view that is in my opinion a good enough system for training. Nev

 

 

[storchy neil]

mind set under the hood is different as the brain knows that you can rip it off as to the going into cloud totally different the brain knows that its going to fail at some stage as it will be working overtime

 

stress causes panic very few persons when panic sets in think positively neil

 

 

[facthunter]

Neil, with an instructor there, you know he/she will save the day too so it's not realistic from that point of view either. The exercise is valid from the skill required aspect insomuch as you don't know which way is UP, because you can't see outside and you are getting all the sensory inputs that confuse in the absence of visual cues, that you don't in a simulator. An expensive full motion simulator goes a fair way but still not the perfect answer. You are supposed to TRUST the instruments, so that can be learned, but the sensations are stronger in the real plane in actual flight. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

The PPL under the hood training is enough to teach you that you can't fly by the seat of your pants without visual reference to a horizon, whether that be in cloud, fog, or low over an expanse of water.

 

That should be introduced to RA.

 

What is missing is training in IDENTIFYING when you are approaching the point of being socked in by cloud, or sucked in to thinking you can creep along just under the ceiling for a few more miles.

 

We now have a simpler regulation requiring a minimum forward vision distance, and the visual recognition of that distance should be a part of training in GA amd RA and doesn't require waiting for the necessary weather conditions.

 

There was a photo posted recently of an aircraft out of VFR conditions, and that pilot would not have been there if he had been trained to visualise the distance (or we hope he would have).

 

 

[storchy neil]

apparently I must the only one from raa that has done under the hood experience why has this not been done

 

to me I assumed it would happen then again I did train with caring instructors

 

or is it that I do not take the word off instructors as gospel

 

as I stated before under the hood and into cloud are to different feeling totally

 

thats me turbs nev I agree totally that a few lesson under the hood with the standard planes instruments

 

now is where the fight will start neil

 

 

[facthunter]

There's something better than the old tennis hood. I think it relies on two colours that eliminate all light together but on their own, don't. Could be something to do with polarised light.

 

Even experienced pilots at times get caught with deteriorating weather especially if it also involves burning off or bushfire smoke and getting towards last light with unexpected headwinds dust coastal mist rapid cooling moist air and so on. mixing layer of stratus forming rapidly .

 

Doing the "this is hard stuff. If you haven't done a million hours of IF,you will crash" and so on. Some people will think it's BS. Down is always down and it's always below the floor of the plane. and will only find out the hard way. It can be very stressful in bad conditions no matter HOW many IF hours you have done, especially at night and if fatigue has something to do with it. A couple of points of light in a pitch black background have interesting effects sometimes too. Nev

 

 

[Geoff13]

When I was doing my Navs , I had a plane booked for a 4 hour Nav and the weather meant we could not go. As I had the plane and instructor booked, I decided to gain some experience doing a bit of local stuff. My instructor asked if I would like to do a bit under the hood. It was 20 minutes of the most intense concentration I can ever remember. At the end of it I felt like I had been 15 rounds with Mohammad Ali.

 

I would love to do some more, it was exhilarating after the event.

 

It taught me two things for certain.

 

One is I never want to go into cloud.

 

Two is that if I find myself in there even with the correct instruments, without a lot more training I do not have very much time to get myself out. I would say 10 minutes at best and that is if I can fight off the panic that would probably be associated with it.

 

 

[facthunter]

You are only worried about your ego when an instructor is with you. When it's just you by yourself, you worry about your life. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

On the lighter side, when I was doing my CIR after levelling out in cruise the instructor said you can take the hood off for a while before the upcoming NDB approach - only to find on removing the hood that we were inside 8/8. I said funny to which I only received an unrepeatable response.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

There needs to be a balance. If we teach a lot of hood flying then the pilot may think he can pop up through the soup and get on top. Not enough and he wont have any tools to deal with an inadvertent entry into IMC.

 

That being said, the old 128 second thing needs to be chucked out. Ive never liked that style of education, TELLING pilots they will be dead in 128 seconds.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Not enough and he wont have any tools to deal with an inadvertent entry into IMC.

 

that is why I did say with the standard basic instruments in in the air craft while wearing hood

 

under the hood sure gets the adrenilen going put on a blindfold and walk around your house see how you go o sheet don't for get the shin guards it will be off before 128 seconds when you cant find the beer

 

sorry to make lite of a very serious mater neil

 

 

[facthunter]

Just make it 300 demerit points and a $5,000 fine. That'l stop em. Nev

 

 

[GraemeK]

That being said, the old 128 second thing needs to be chucked out.

I agree - if I ever found myself inadvertently in IMC, last thing I need is the thought running through my head that I'll be dead in 128 seconds - that would sure add to the panic just when I would need to be focussed on keeping the bugger upright.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Put in fixed and mobile IMC cameras, works on the road !

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

There is an old gliding textbook ( English) which says to go up into the cu on your first cross-country, even if this is your first time in cloud. I think Derek Piggot was the author. Well knowing how low the cloudbase is on a good English soaring day (4000ft) , I had to agree with him.

 

I read this in about 1970 and ( with a turn and bank ) have gone into clouds (for educational purposes and fun ) ( of course in foreign countries where it is legal to do so) several times since, but not in competitions because cloud flying and any gyro instruments are banned in Australia.

 

It is an oversimplification about "seconds to live". Not all cu are killers, there are nice little ones well clear of the ground that are completely safe to fly into.

 

If your only gyro is a turn indicator, you will find the airspeed hard to keep constant, but there is nothing dangerous about flying in cloud like this. People have been doing it safely for more than 50 years.

 

Now please don't interpret this to say that I think it ok to fly into cloud which extends down to ground level (or close to ground level).

 

 

[Steve G]

Wow as they say everyone has an opinion to be sure. So here's my bit.

 

High hours in mic flying home on a Sunday, had traffic to deal with Enrique crossing at Avalon , dial in up frequencies and on auto pilot and Mel centre asked, are you diverting around Avalon? Huh? Checked my scan, autopilot had kicked out dog had spun from 270 around to 185 nose slightly down and wings had gone from level to about rate one and was in start of what could have been an incipient spin down into the bay. Didn't hear or feel a thing. Decades later during recent renewal, again cross traffic at SHT fir waited to intercept track to MNG Omni, entered cloud with instructor beside me had not set up craft so fiddled around with radio dials, why would not that dial switch, got a tap on shoulder and went back to the scan and wow climbing the turn from 181 around onto 320 no warning. Third event at night bunch of students on board in a 182 elbow on the arm rest heading 180 after downwind departure, again fiddling with GPS to show how to set up arnav, tacking away, hit the go to button, Cedi went left off scale? Wtf? Had done climbing the turn to 320 never moved my arm off the arm rest. IMO even us experienced guys don't get any warning except off the six pack, Aviate, concentrate Aviate navigate, nothing else IMC nothing shut up think fly.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Steve, I don't think we disagree..at least not too much. There is all the difference in the world between entering unbroken low overcast and a nice cumulus based at 4000ft and maybe one km in diameter. To lump these events together is just stupid and untrue.

 

Oversimplifying a complex world doesn't help to ensure safety. There was a tragic double fatality not far from here when a Technam lost its wings after entering low cloud, the pilot apparently lost control.

 

I reckon that among other things, this accident was caused by excessive regulation and stupid lies. If the pilot had not been prevented from experiencing a bit of cloud flying under safe circumstances, he would still be alive. Well I can't prove this, but I reckon it likely.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Steve, I don't think we disagree..at least not too much. There is all the difference in the world between entering unbroken low overcast and a nice cumulus based at 4000ft and maybe one km in diameter. To lump these events together is just stupid and untrue.Oversimplifying a complex world doesn't help to ensure safety. There was a tragic double fatality not far from here when a Technam lost its wings after entering low cloud, the pilot apparently lost control.

I reckon that among other things, this accident was caused by excessive regulation and stupid lies. If the pilot had not been prevented from experiencing a bit of cloud flying under safe circumstances, he would still be alive.

Recommending flying into cloud sets a bad enough example, but attempting to reverse a double fatality to encourage flying into cloud is likely to produce more fatalities.

If you read the reports on the example you gave, you'll find that the area forecast was for severe turbulence; the aircraft may not have even been in cloud when the wings were ripped off.

 

What we have available to student and certified/licensed pilots is a series of safe steps:

 

(a) training explanations, warnings, previous cases, suggested examples and a very clear regulation which provides enough distance for a pilot to make a U turn with clear visibility all the way round*

 

(b) In GA, a couple of hours under the hood to experience spatial loss, and KNOW why not to enter VMC. (Nothing to stop an RA student pilot doing the couple of hours at a GA school.)

 

© Nothing to stop an RA or GA student/pilot from doing an hour or two with an IFR rated Instructor in VMC conditions, which includes the key flight planning differences.**

 

I assume in your earlier post when you were referring to a recommendation to flying into Cu in a glider on your first cross country, you meant with an IFR rated instructor, not solo.

 

The reason for the training under the hood, is that your training aircraft may not be rated for IFR, and more importantly, your Instructor may not be rated for IFR., so he could get into as much trouble as you.

 

I also understand where Motz is coming from, and I know you kept your examples to Cu, but both fail the test of IFR Flight planning and rules; there's no way you know whether a Dash 8 or another Cu player isn't flying through the same lump of cloud.

 

Also, it doesn't necessarily take 178 seconds; I recall my instructor, about to train me on spiral dives and incipient spins, asking me to set up a turn at 60 degrees bank, and than "Well since we're in a spiral dive alreadyt, we'll try that one first!" - and that was in clear air!

 

* in simple, straighforward meteorological conditions; where fog or low cloud is closing in behind you, the situation may not be so simple; usually at that point the reason you are there is that you failed to obtain/understand the Airservices aviation weather report (as against Elders/willyweather etc.), and shouldn't be in the area. I set up a thread a few years ago on this, and there has been some good input, but no real solution to identifying those more complex weather patterns.

 

** In this case, the instructor is showing you how Commercial Pilots routinely, and safely, fly in IMC conditions, what the aircraft equiment needs to be, and how important flight planning is to ensure you don't hit radio towers, mountains, other aircraft in IMC, and the process of being able to let down safely to the point when you have visual flight conditions.

 

 

[philipnz]

I did it once, in the early days by accident. Thankfully I'd installed an artificial horizon in my plane which raised eyes in my community, but I just fixed my eyes on it, keeping the wings level and climbing slightly knowing I'd pop out which I did. Scared the crap out of me and I went straight home.

 

It was $5000 but worth every penny that day. Never again