Takeoff clearance read back

[Parkway]

So normally at Jandakot we have runway 06L on 118.1 for most of the landing and departing aircraft, and 06R on 119.4 for aircraft doing circuits. On this morning it was obviously still fairly quiet as it was still early, and they had all traffic on 118.1 which I hadn't encountered before. they seemed to be picking on everyone (for want of a better word) for saying "cleared for takeoff" instead of "cleared for takeoff runway 06R"

 

Normally just "cleared for takeoff" is allowed, I'm wondering a) how is the pilot meant to know that on this day a different read back is required and b) is it actually required? I'm assuming yes, you do need to read back the assigned runway for takeoff or lineup and wait or whatever, but maybe normally when the two different frequencies are operating they let it slide more often? Interested to hear some opinions.

 

Here's a video of the approach that morning

 

 

 

[Robbo]

Just use "cleared for take off alpha bravo charlie"

 

If they get picky i just say "did you get out of the bed the wrong way this morning sir as you can see me through your bifoculs.

 

LOL I got the dreaded "contact tower by phone on landing" once and it turned out the enroute controller was a girl I new from Moorabbin many years ago.

 

 

[Parkway]

Well yeah I was kind of thinking that, they know what runway you are holding short of because you've already announced that, and they can see you sitting there. Maybe the coffee machine was broken lol

 

But I guess I'm wondering if it's actually technically correct to say the runway as well. I think I usually do but not always

 

 

[Robbo]

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/enroute.pdf

[djpacro]

The clue is "read back".

 

 

[rage83]

readback according to AIP includes runway. therefore rwy 06L Clear for takeoff.

 

granted when there is only one active runway on frequency there shouldnt be an issue however it is a double check.

 

Truth be told its poor form not to include it.

 

 

[ben87r]

It SHOULD always be cleared to TO/LAND runway 06 L/R, by as DJ has eluded to, minimum read back would be whatever they have cleared you, cleared to TO, cleared to TO runway RIGHT, or cleared to TO runway 06R.

 

It depends on how busy they are and if they know you are familiar with the airport or not from my experience as to which is used.

 

I normally out of habit (good?) read back the runway even if not given to me in the clearance. So if they said "cleared to land" my read back would normally be cleared to land 06R/L.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/general.pdf

 

Pages 3.4 - 53 and 54

 

Runway designation L/R is required if parallel runway op's in progress and discrete frequencies are not in use.

 

Sounds like an extract from the following Monty Python script:

 

Now, before I begin the lesson, will those of you who are playing in the match this afternoon move your clothes down onto the lower peg immediately after lunch, before you write your letter home, if you're not getting your hair cut, unless you've got a younger brother who is going out this weekend as the guest of another boy, in which case, collect his note before lunch, put it in your letter after you've had your hair cut, and make sure he moves your clothes down onto the lower peg for you. Now...

 

 

[JEM]

Aren't those CASA general rules found in www/airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/general/pdf only directed at international flights departures by airliners? Although they might also be found in a Monty Python script.

 

 

[dutchroll]

I have to admit I often hear RPT fail to readback the runway number for takeoff and landing clearances and am guilty of not doing it myself. We generally get a simple "cleared to land" or "cleared for takeoff" and the habit is formed to readback the landing or takeoff clearance without a runway number. So when they do append a runway number to it, you tend to forget even though AIP does show that it's a requirement. ATC haven't cracked down on that yet, but I know they're cracking down on the "lineup and wait" readback which always used to be simply "lineup" (you didn't have to readback the "wait" according to the phraseology in AIP) but has changed, probably because someone took off without a clearance. A colleague of mine recently got roundly castigated on the airwaves by the tower controller at Melbourne one day for not reading back the ".......and wait" and I heard another RPT aircraft cop a serve for it just a couple of days ago in Perth.

 

Some comments (not transmitted of course!) I often hear in the cockpit include "well what other runway are we going to takeoff on?" and "well off course we're going to wait - you haven't cleared us for takeoff yet so what else are we going to do?" however I suppose there must've been some incidents which have prompted the phraseology people to go on the warpath.

 

Compared to most other countries in the world, we are quite anal with our R/T phraseology. Like our airport security!

 

There is a specific exemption in AIP at Class D aerodromes with runway operations on discrete frequencies (at least that's how it reads to me).

 

 

[facthunter]

The "wait" could have considerable significance . (easy to imagine) IF you don't read it back it may well be taken as you having "missed" it. At one time O/seas read back everything but domestics didn't here. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Aren't those CASA general rules found in www/airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/aip/general/pdf only directed at international flights departures by airliners? Although they might also be found in a Monty Python script.

Oh dear....

 

 

[rhysmcc]

It's pretty easy, if ATC use the runway in the clearance, read it back. Remember your not the only airplane in the sky (or on the ground).

 

ATC will use the runway if more than one is in use. If you don't read it back we must chase it the correct read back otherwise we get in trouble.

 

Think about what you would do if you were on short final and just heard a take off clearance given, not knowing what runway they are using...

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's even easier than that; ATC is giving you an instruction with specifics, and to be sure you do what they expect, they are looking for a precise read back - excactly the details they gave you.

 

That lets them focus on the next problem somewhere else.

 

There are an awful lot of people out there who hear something different to what was said, and go off on a different tangent.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The "wait" could have considerable significance . (easy to imagine) IF you don't read it back it may well be taken as you having "missed" it. At one time O/seas read back everything but domestics didn't here. Nev

The clearance "lineup" constitutes a clearance to lineup and nothing else. The clearance "lineup and wait" constitutes a clearance to lineup and nothing else. If ATC really wanted to they could add a clearance to "lineup, wait, and don't do anything else" and it would still constitute a clearance to lineup and nothing else.

 

Think about what you would do if you were on short final and just heard a take off clearance given, not knowing what runway they are using...

Happens fairly regularly. We'll often not pickup the specifics of instructions to other callsigns during critical or busy phases of flight because, well, we're busy!

We all have to abide by the same rules. But in the Pitts I've got precisely nothing to do between lining up, and advancing the throttle for takeoff. In an Airbus I have 9 procedural items and a checklist to complete in the same time period!

 

 

[turboplanner]

We all have to abide by the same rules. But in the Pitts I've got precisely nothing to do between lining up, and advancing the throttle for takeoff. In an Airbus I have 9 procedural items and a checklist to complete in the same time period!

Do you ever get the urge in the Pitts to throw in the odd "Thanks Mate" or, "OK", or "What was that?"

 

 

[rhysmcc]

the important part being if ATC say it, read it back else they will chase you for the read back (because they have too).

 

 

[facthunter]

So you have to, too. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Do you ever get the urge in the Pitts to throw in the odd "Thanks Mate" or, "OK", or "What was that?"

Not really. Then again I don't generally do that in the day job either though I will happily return a greeting if I get one!

This whole thing with ever-increasing readbacks and the arguments used to support them is interesting. They've only ever had one purpose in life, and a very important one: to confirm to ATC that the aircraft has correctly understood the clearance or instruction it was issued.

 

Readbacks have never been for other purposes. That might be called a "broadcast" or something similar. Of course there's nothing to stop you from gaining SA from a clearance issued by ATC to someone else. We do that all time (when the brainspace and capacity is available) and it's good airmanship when you can.

 

The other interesting thing is the Airservices conflation and confusion of their own principles recently. Going back to the "lineup and wait", for example, it has been said (in the process of admonishing an aircraft as personally relayed to me) that the "....and wait" is a conditional clearance and therefore needs to be read back. That's just bollocks someone plucked out of their backside. Sure conditional clearances do have to be read back but in this case, what exactly is the condition? What else can you do? It has the same effect as the other commonly used "XYZ lineup". It has no additional conditions and means exactly what it says, and has precisely the same effect as the previous one. You can't actually do anything else after being cleared to lineup until you receive another clearance or instruction.

 

It's like saying "XYZ descend to 5000 and then stop descent". Really? No I figured I'd just keep on going!

 

Now if they say "Behind the Chieftain on final, lineup behind" yes now they've put a condition on the lineup of only doing it behind the Chieftain, so that bit has to be read back. And no you don't have to repeat "behind" at the end - you've already said it at the beginning so the compliance is quite clear.

 

the important part being if ATC say it, read it back else they will chase you for the read back (because they have too).

That's not strictly true, but sure, I'll read-back whatever they want. If they give me an updated ATIS on approach to Melbourne and want me to readback the entire ATIS to them I'll do that. If they want me to read back "when ready" even though it's not a conditional clearance for descent, I'll do that too, but there's no requirement.

AIP GEN 4.4.1 "For other than item a), only key elements of the following clearances, instructions , or information must be read-back ensuring sufficient detail is included to indicate compliance." then it goes on to list those clearances/instructions for which only key elements need to be read back.

 

Which goes back to what I said above, about the entire reason for having readbacks. But someone in ASA is going beserk at the moment. If they want every single word to be read back verbatim then they need to change GEN 4.4.1 because it quite clearly states otherwise and it's their own publication. Sure the key elements are usually somewhere in the readback, but they're becoming too often interspersed with garbage, and now garbage on demand!

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Whilst on the topic of RT, has anyone who learnt to fly say more than 20 years ago noticed the increase in calls at non-controlled airports?

 

People chip me if I don't call turning downwind, final and clear of the runway!

 

Taxying/line-up and base call are all I would routinely make in the circuit area. Inbound I'd make a call at an appropriate distance, then with intentions as to how I plan to join the circuit when I've decided. Any other call would only be on an as needed basis.

 

 

[ben87r]

Whilst on the topic of RT, has anyone who learnt to fly say more than 20 years ago noticed the increase in calls at non-controlled airports?People chip me if I don't call turning downwind, final and clear of the runway!

Taxying/line-up and base call are all I would routinely make in the circuit area. Inbound I'd make a call at an appropriate distance, then with intentions as to how I plan to join the circuit when I've decided. Any other call would only be on an as needed basis.

I don't fit the 20yr criteria but the only one I would add as a departure call and entering instead of line- up. The every leg of the circuit is flight school stuff.... Unless required on the day.

 

I herd an instructor the other day telling a student that "it's a legal requirement to call each leg" I nearly went and asked for a reference but thought better.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I would add as a departure call and entering instead of line- up. The every leg of the circuit is flight school stuff.... Unless required on the day.

- I'm not sure why a departure call would be required? The line-up call would include intentions.

 

- Also, what circumstances would "required on the day" dictate calls for each leg of the circuit?

 

I'm not having a go at you, just trying to understand the thought process?

 

 

[dutchroll]

I herd an instructor the other day telling a student that "it's a legal requirement to call each leg" I nearly went and asked for a reference but thought better.

Yeah that's amazing that someone would think that. Especially if you're going to use big words like "legal requirement".

However there is a time and place to argue about it, and with your instructor in the other seat, it's not that time & place!

 

 

[ben87r]

- I'm not sure why a departure call would be required? The line-up call would include intentions.- Also, what circumstances would "required on the day" dictate calls for each leg of the circuit?

 

I'm not having a go at you, just trying to understand the thought process?

No offence taken.

Departure call gives traffic in the area a chance that may not have herd your other calls due to frequency limitations, their distance away from the aerodrome when you made the call, terrain etc, but importantly it gives a time of departure and more relevant traffic information to anyone who may be going to bump you at some stage.

 

IE if I hear a taxi call I normally don't pay too much attention, as they make take their sweet a&$@ time getting airborne or it may be one min, lining up, same thoughts also most wouldn't give intentions with a lining up call it would usually be ABC lining up RWY 01, which is good for inbound traffic not so much for others.... But, a departure call I know your at least airborne, passing x altitude and climbing to Xx tracking Xxx. You may not know I'm there but I can judge whether or not we are conflicting and either speak up or keep quiet and you would never be the wiser half the time.

 

As for the on the day bit...there are times when I've had a few aircraft trying to backtrack lineup and depart, before I've landed, it's one of many cases where I would give each leg until I knew no one else was going to enter, just giving the other guys enough info for them to use their judgement as to whether they had time or not to get out, if I call base, and they decide to backtrack, you could be sure ild report final, and most likely short final too if he is buggering about.

 

 

[ben87r]

Yeah that's amazing that someone would think that. Especially if you're going to use big words like "legal requirement".However there is a time and place to argue about it, and with your instructor in the other seat, it's not that time & place!

Wasn't my instructor I was just grabbing fuel behind them as they were preparing to depart, hence my temptation!