Takeoff clearance read back

[Happyflyer]

Ok lots of opinions here... I agree with many, but... What is the absolute MANDATORY minimum calls inbound to landing at a basic CTAF? Given that a radio is optional, my pick is NONE! Obviously, that isn't very safe, so flexibility, (governed by traffic density) is the best choice, I would think... Keep it minimum when busy, moderate if nobody around, and LOOK OUT THE WINDOW at all times! Ok, flame me now...

I would have thought inbound at 10 nm and joining cct with intentions and any other necessary calls to avoid collision or close call.

 

 

[ben87r]

Everyone seem to be looking for a "rule" or "standard" amount/type of calls. The only rule is CAR 166, everything else is a suggestion OCTA.

 

Make all that are required to aid in collision avoidance by judgement and situational awareness of the day being considerate of other aircraft in the area and don't make any that unnecessary. That's what being PIC is all about, judgement.

 

Most situations more than one leg of the circuit is unnecessary.

 

Taxi, entertaining, backtracking, lining up, departing also unnecessary in most situations.

 

 

[Robbo]

My motto is use your brains, if there is not much traffic (e.g around 2-3 aircraft) use the basic calls 5nm inbound, overhead, downwind and final.

 

If there is a lot of traffic in the circuit use your brains and use the calls that you feel safe by such as inbound, overhead, joining circuit, downwind, base and final.

 

But just don't dribble rubbish that doesen't need to be said as it could cause radio congestion and you may miss inbound or collision avoidance calls.

 

 

[facthunter]

Quality not quantity is the deal with R/T. IF the "talk" is such that people can't get a word in, the situation is not safe. IF you are constantly worried about complying with some perceived rule, or how sexy you sound, rather than the need and usefulness of your transmission you will be distracted from what is really going on. The general standard In my view is pretty poor, and needs most to make the extra effort to lift their game. If you miss something that might be critical ask ""XYZ or tower, say again,... ABC (callsign)" That's about the most concise way to get the you info want repeated.

 

Before you press the transmit button, KNOW what you are going to say, Listen out briefly, talk slowly and clearly. Keep it short. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

My motto is use your brains, if there is not much traffic (e.g around 2-3 aircraft) use the basic calls 5nm inbound, overhead, downwind and final.If there is a lot of traffic in the circuit use your brains and use the calls that you feel safe by such as inbound, overhead, joining circuit, downwind, base and final.

 

But just don't dribble rubbish that doesen't need to be said as it could cause radio congestion and you may miss inbound or collision avoidance calls.

Maybe read CAAP 166-1(3), page 22. Your version of "basic calls" seems to differ from those recommended and if there's a lot of traffic you suggest making more calls?

 

 

[Aldo]

The most useless call that's appeared in recent years would be "clear of runway". Why make this call?

Roundy

 

Because if you are in Toowoomba you are not able to see if the aircraft is clear due to the hump in the middle. Just because it's not in a CAP doesn't mean it's not useful.

 

Make whatever radio calls you think necessary to maintain separation, it's too late once you run into someone, like the 3 dead on final in another post.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Because if you are in Toowoomba you are not able to see if the aircraft is clear due to the hump in the middle. Just because it's not in a CAP doesn't mean it's not useful.Aldo

Like the CAAP says, if there's a risk of collision use the radio. However, the vast majority of airports in this country don't have the situation you described with regards to humps in runways. The starting point with reference to radio calls should be as recommended in the CAAP, supported by additional calls only if required to avoid a collision. I simply don't understand the proliferation of a continuous commentary of an aircraft's progress inbound and/or in the circuit. It's unnecessary and dangerous.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is frequently too much chatter. It's a pity there is so much confusion over this. When it was first introduced it seemed more clearly explained. It's reasonable to KNOW why you are doing something and it shouldn't just be because "someone" said so. Are people MAKING UP the rules as they go? Nev

 

 

[SSCBD]

My thought is that they were taught by flying schools who had taken the earlier version of CASA's rules to heart - "it says recommended so you must do it because if you don't and ........ "[ATTACH]45744[/ATTACH]

My observation is that there were few, if any, superfluous radio calls prior to that.

How many of us, have used ALL of the calls listed here except when other aircraft (more than one ) are in the circuit?

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

A new low on YCAB CTAF this morning - a 172 called taxiing from hangar to fuel bowser FFS

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Parkway]

"Murray Field traffic Jabiru 8364 is commencing pushback from hangar, turning nose to the north, then starting pre flight, Murray Field"

 

I can't help but think this thread has gone off topic, but interesting none the less :)

 

 

[Nightmare]

Parkway, you must have radio'ed the tower for a clearance on RWY 06R, so if the tower contacted your call-sign and said "cleared for takeoff", then you would be good to read it back as stated to you, and you could assume the clearance was given. However, for good measure it would probably be wise to question the tower to confirm the clearance for that runway, after all, people sometimes make mistakes, even ATC. Resolve all doubt in your favour.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

If ATC doesn't mention the runway then I wouldn't be querying it unless you think some confusion has taken place. ATC are only required to use the runway number when more then one runway is in use on a single frequency.

 

If they say it, then you must. If they don't then you aren't required too (but can if you like)

 

 

[Parkway]

Yeah that's what I do, I readback what they say. I guess I kinda already knew the answer to my question

 

 

[pmccarthy]

We rarely have more than thre aircraft in circuit at YKTN. I find all the circuit calls helpful for situational awareness.

 

 

[Aldo]

I would probably be accused of making more calls than necessary by some of the experts here, but I make them so that others are aware of what I'm doing. One of my big bugbears is incorrect position reports particularly from converging traffic approaching airports I've seen them as far as 5 miles different to where they say they are this is very dangerous because if I hear a call from someone saying they are in one place which will be no conflict to me I'm no longer concerned with that aircraft. The calls and reasons I make them are below.

 

Entering

 

Traffic xxx, ABC enters and rolls runway 11 for a left turn, departing overhead, tracking to intercept 274, climbing to 6500, xxx.

 

This lets traffic in the vicinity of the airfield know exactly what my intentions are.

 

Departing (this call on both CTAF and Area)

 

CTAF - Traffic xxx, ABC departed overhead time 25, established outbound 274, climbing 6500 passing 3500 xxx

 

Area - All stations xxx, ABC departed overhead time 25, established outbound 274, climbing 6500 passing 3500, yyy at 40, if centre don't do it automatically (and they often do) request the current area QNH.

 

This lets traffic (CTAF) further out (but inbound) know what my intentions are (they may not have been on CTAF at the time of my entering call) and my current location as we maybe conflicting through various levels.

 

Area call lets transiting and inbound aircraft (possibly not on CTAF at that time) know my intentions and current location.

 

Inbound

 

Area - All stations xxx, ABC is 30 GPS to the west inbound on descent left 9500 tracking for a 5 mile final RW 11, 5 mile position time 15

 

CTAF - Traffic xxx, ABC is 30 GPS to the west inbound on descent left 9500 tracking for a 5 mile final RW 11, 5 mile position time 15, xxx

 

CTAF - Traffic xxx ABC is 10 miles to the west inbound for xxx, passing 4500, tracking for a 5 mile final RW 11, xxx

 

CTAF - Traffic xxx, ABC established 3 mile final RW 11

 

All pretty simple really, doesn't take up enormous air time and no one is under any illusions as to what my intentions are, the key is knowing what you are going to say before you key the mike.

 

Aldo

 

 

[mike_perth]

To go back to the OPs post I don't understand why they don't maintain dual frequencies in manned tower hours, seems to just add confusion maybe someone away sick? I've encountered it twice at Jandakot and it was congested and tedious.

 

 

[Garfly]

This tragedy occurred at a non-controlled field in the US but it shows just how easy it is for vital radio comms to be missed and/or misunderstood.

 

 

 

[Yenn]

If I gave all that info in my calls from our airstrip which is not on any charts it would have to be on area frequency to be legal. It may not take up much time, but i am sure that area would query why i am transmitting for so long.

 

 

[DWF]

If I gave all that info in my calls from our airstrip which is not on any charts it would have to be on area frequency to be legal. It may not take up much time, but i am sure that area would query why i am transmitting for so long.

CASA is about to issue a Discussion Paper on this issue.

I would suggest that we all follow/comply with the current procedure whenever appropriate to see if it really is a problem.

 

Make a note of each occasion and in particular any problem or comments encountered.

 

We will then have some 'ammunition' to back up any argument we may bring to the Discussion.

 

DWF

 

 

[Aldo]

If I gave all that info in my calls from our airstrip which is not on any charts it would have to be on area frequency to be legal. It may not take up much time, but i am sure that area would query why i am transmitting for so long.

Yenn

 

Have you tried it and have they queried you, I suspect no to both and I also suspect that you won't be questioned because as PIC it is up to you to avoid a separation incident

 

We also have the same situation not marked on charts but make all the calls never been questioned in 7 years

 

Aldo

 

 

[GraemeK]

I occasionally fly into a strip not on any chart, and several times other pilots have reminded me I'm on Centre - including at times Centre themselves.

 

 

[Nightmare]

If the ALA is not in ERSA with a CTAF, I was taught to transmit my intentions on the area frequency.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

If the ALA is not in ERSA with a CTAF, I was taught to transmit my intentions on the area frequency.

A bit more to that, if the ALA is marked on a chart use 126.7, if not in ERSA or on Charts use area.

 

Extract from VFRG:

 

"If you are operating at an aerodrome that is not published in ERSA or marked on charts, good airmanship implies that you should monitor and broadcast your intentions on the relevant area frequency (CAAP 166-1(3))."

 

The hardest part of teaching pilots to fly is getting them to the point where they can safely and competently operate without supervision. This includes being able to obtain/interpret preflight briefings and understand rules/reg's and knowing where to find them! I find there are plenty who can push/pull reasonably well but have only been taught rules/reg's by rote.