Plane crash at Yarram Victoria

[turboplanner]

Don't worry it's just my own writing.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Shorthand for the Pilot had a Pilot Certificate, he wasn't a student.

hands up everyone who knew that...

 

 

[Love to fly]

Everyone except me I guess.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Everyone except me I guess.

I don't think jab7252 was having a go at you:whisper:(I think he was just stirring with turbo)

 

 

[DrZoos]

hands up everyone who knew that...

And all we could hear was crickets!

 

 

[turboplanner]

I was told by a friend who spoke to the owner of the aircraft pilot was on his first solo cross country trip ,pilot bit short on final and at full flaps applying power to reach the thresh hold plane pitched up and stalled dropped a wing rolled over .

If this was correct there might be an explanation; I was doing touch and goes one day in 5215, and forgot to retract the flaps on touch down. When I gave it full take off throttle, the nose pitched up and kept coming. At that stage I was far enough off the ground that I didn't want any sink so I pushed the control yoke forward and decided to fly it out on full flap. It still wanted to pitch up on to its back and, without getting to the bending-the-yoke stage, I had to use full arm muscle just to get the nose down to the correct attitude until I had enough height to reach out to the flap switch.

So I can understand that if he was tired and realised he was short, and gave it full throttle it would be easy to be caught by not enough arm effort quickly enough.

 

 

[cooperplace]

If this was correct there might be an explanation; I was doing touch and goes one day in 5215, and forgot to retract the flaps on touch down. When I gave it full take off throttle, the nose pitched up and kept coming. At that stage I was far enough off the ground that I didn't want any sink so I pushed the control yoke forward and decided to fly it out on full flap. It still wanted to pitch up on to its back and, without getting to the bending-the-yoke stage, I had to use full arm muscle just to get the nose down to the correct attitude until I had enough height to reach out to the flap switch.So I can understand that if he was tired and realised he was short, and gave it full throttle it would be easy to be caught by not enough arm effort quickly enough.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to have made that mistake

 

 

[alf jessup]

Sounds like your on to it Turbs

 

 

[Keenaviator]

I would have thought the pitch up tendency of a Jabiru would be OK to overcome on a go around - even when trimmed for landing.

 

 

[Aldo]

I was told by a friend who spoke to the owner of the aircraft pilot was on his first solo cross country trip ,pilot bit short on final and at full flaps applying power to reach the thresh hold plane pitched up and stalled dropped a wing rolled over .

 

If this was correct there might be an explanation

If this was really the reason what the hell was he doing flying solo, if you are not able to a missed approach with full flap stay the hell away from aeroplanes. I wouldn't want to be the CFI/instructor that signed him off as competent.

 

Aldo

 

 

[turboplanner]

If this was really the reason what the hell was he doing flying solo, if you are not able to a missed approach with full flap stay the hell away from aeroplanes. I wouldn't want to be the CFI/instructor that signed him off as competent. Aldo

One report says he was flying there for eight years, so we don't really know his experience.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I would have thought the pitch up tendency of a Jabiru would be OK to overcome on a go around - even when trimmed for landing.

Whis Jabiru are you comparing it to?

LSA55 - flew two of them, never experenced any pitch up.

 

J160 - flew two of them, never experienced any pitch up, and one of them was rigged beautifully.

 

J170 pre-AD - flew two of them and only experienced on pitch up from 5215.

 

J170 post-AD haven't flown one.

 

On one occasion I caught a wind shear on late final on 5215 with full flap close to the mangroves; slammed the throttle full open, and the aircraft ballooned up, as you would expect

 

The difference between the two occasions may have been momentum coming in vs hanging on the prop taking off.

 

One habit on 5215 was due to the lines coming up from the rear being bundled; you'd set take off trim, but when you did the final controls free and correct check, the trim control would slide forward with the yoke. I only ever noticed it sliding for take off, never saw it slide back, but that's a possibility.

 

 

[Love to fly]

My thoughts go out to the family and friends.

 

VALE – JOHN MOONEY | Tooradin Flying School

 

 

[Oscar]

[quote="

 

One habit on 5215 was due to the lines coming up from the rear being bundled; you'd set take off trim, but when you did the final controls free and correct check, the trim control would slide forward with the yoke. I only ever noticed it sliding for take off, never saw it slide back, but that's a possibility.

 

Pitch trim on Jabirus is managed by a spring balance arrangement at the elevator horn which is altered in position by the trim lever - so YES, it will move - in both directions - with a full-control-deflection check, unless the trim lever friction is excessive. It is designed to do what trim is supposed to do: relieve the pressure on the stick for a specific attitude. If you are setting trim BEFORE you have done the 'full, free and correct' check, then you need to go back and change your habits.

 

The Jabiru elevator trim system provides a secondary (mechanical) safety for the elevator control: an essential safety feature. You can fly with rudder disconnected by use of the secondary effect of ailerons; you can fly with ailerons disconnected by the use of rudder (both under the proviso that the aircraft is actually aerodynamically balanced.) But there is NO 'secondary effect' to counter elevator control failure.

 

Pitch trim control of the elevators by mechanical connection provides a back-up system; that this works, I know, as a family member once landed a Jabiru without fuss (other than from the Bundy tower, who was having hysterics about 'are you declaring an emergency' 'No, I just want a straight-in approach, please') with the main elevator control cable detached. Had there been a similar arrangement on that Morgan that went into the sea at Moruya last year (??) that accident might not have happened.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Bundy tower?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Power has a secondary effect on pitch...Just saying :)

 

 

[Oscar]

Yes, Merv - I should have typed 'Bundy Controller'. 'Tower' was shorthand.

 

Yes, power WILL affect pitch, but the usefulness of that in the case of trying to land depends on a number of factors, including the thrustline/drag line disposition, the engine offset and the prop. wash effect on the tailfeathers. Since you are a highly conscientious Instructor, I assume you teach 'secondary effects' - but do you teach pitch control through power management?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Absolutely. We teach all sorts of control failure scenarios. Pitch control with power is very effective in some types, Jab 160's especially.

 

I wasnt aware Bundy was a controlled airfield? Did it used to be?

 

 

[facthunter]

Pitch control you cannot be without. I prefer a separate system of trim not a spring. Movable stab or trim tab. No design should be approved without it.. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes, true..But lets not forget.. If the elevator is Jammed, trim works in the opposite direction (if its a trim tab) ..

 

 

[ave8rr]

Never been a tower at Bundy "Bundaberg" that I know of.....

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I didnt think so either..

 

 

[Oscar]

Absolutely. We teach all sorts of control failure scenarios. Pitch control with power is very effective in some types, Jab 160's especially.I wasnt aware Bundy was a controlled airfield? Did it used to be?

Merv: I would have expected no less of you. As we have commented upon many times in various threads, my power flying experience is inadequate from which to make any pronouncements, so your comments on this is of far greater value: could one successfully land a J160 using power control of pitch, on an average regional airstrip?

 

I don't know whether Bundy was 'controlled' in the early 1990's , but it had a 'base' station.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes. I expect instructors I trained (in the 160) to be able to pull off a reasonable approach and landing with simulated elevator failure, and aileron failure at the same time.. :)

 

Most often with a go round at the last second when it was obvious the landing would be survived :) using power and flap changes its doable. Sometimes even touching down.

 

I recall even being able to pull off a reasonable approach and landing in a Bantam with an instructor candidate, using nothing but flap, power and weight shifting.

 

 

[Oscar]

Yes. I expect instructors I trained (in the 160) to be able to pull off a reasonable approach and landing with simulated elevator failure, and aileron failure at the same time.. :)Most often with a go round at the last second when it was obvious the landing would be survived :) using power and flap changes its doable. Sometimes even touching down.

I recall even being able to pull off a reasonable approach and landing in a Bantam with an instructor candidate, using nothing but flap, power and weight shifting.

That's good information, thanks. In my fairly few to date flights in a 160, I found relatively little difference in pitch with minor power changes when using full flap, but that's very possibly because I was using a glide-approach profile anyway - old habits die hard I've found - so 'power' was mainly used as 'energy management'.