Mid-air on final to same runway kills 3

[Guest SrPilot]

Having the runway "made" doesn't mean much if "see and avoid" isn't working adequately.

 

A flight instructor and a student pilot in a Diamond DA-20 and another pilot in a Bonanza died on short final at an uncontrolled airport in Georgia. The video below shows the runway and approach (and crash) area. No obstacles other than the other airplane.

 

Georgia mid-air plane crash: 3 dead in Carroll County plane crash

 

My condolences to the families.

 

 

[farri]

Having the runway "made" doesn't mean much if "see and avoid" isn't working

Absolutely! A good pair of eyes keeping a sharp lookout, at all times, is required, regardless of what is being flown!!!

 

My condolences, also.

 

 

[onetrack]

Interesting to see that one of the victims was 79 yrs old. Reports indicate he was the pilot of the Bonanza, the young woman instructor and her male student were in the Diamond.

 

One thing that a lot of people don't understand, is that your ability to swivel your head, as you reach the years past retirement age, becomes more and more restricted. It's simply due to aging neck muscles, that don't have the flexibility of younger muscles.

 

This is a common and known problem with car drivers, and it results in car crashes, when elderly drivers don't turn their head far enough at intersections to look for oncoming traffic. In an aircraft, the ability to swivel your head to look past 90 deg each side (and over your shoulder), is more crucial even, than in a car.

 

In addition, older people develop bad habits that are hard to break. Two of those bad habits are;

 

(1) An increasing tendency as we age to become "single-task" focussed - to the exclusion of other important tasks that are important to keep focussed on, simultaneously.

 

(2) A tendency to become "sloppy" when carrying out crucial tasks. I guess this is the old "familiarity breeds contempt" take. Many older people become casual with their carrying out of crucial tasks, to the extent that they become a safety risk because they are not carrying out those tasks to the required high standards and strict procedures.

 

Not saying that the older gentleman here is totally at fault - it takes two to tango - but I would hazard a WAG in this case, that the instructor was distracted from keeping a proper lookout by her students performance - and the older gentleman just didn't apply himself with the necessary intensive rigour, to the proper lookout angle.

 

In his case, his age, and his reduced ability to turn his head to the required degree of articulation to scan the sky, could have been an important factor in the crash.

 

I guess the age-old problem of thinking you're the only one in the area, because of the low traffic volume, can also be a major trap.

 

 

[facthunter]

Not impressed by old people bashing. Generalising is not helpful and speculation also. Many planes have poor visibility from the cockpit. The turn onto final is the most critical for many things including conflict with other planes. It's not a big enough sky to believe it is safe to not look thoroughly, when entering or crossing runways, descending perhaps onto other planes, extended climb etc. A Bonanza in a left bank is difficult to see much out of except to the port side ahead. Most Airliners are even worse. Nev

 

 

[farri]

We can all speculate on the cause of an accident, but it remains just that, "SPECULATION!"...Not much to be learnt in speculation.

 

 

[M61A1]

Looking at both aircraft types, neither have good vis fwd and down or aft and up. I would be very easy for both of them not to know the other was there, regardless of age and neck swivelling ability. Any number of communication difficulties could be possible, from someone transmitting over your call, just plain not transmitting or even transmitting an incorrect position. Heard that many times, probably even done it myself.

 

 

[facthunter]

Easy to land on top of another plane and you never see it till you hear it. The Drifter is about the best there is for vis from the front seat. Try one if you haven't , and enjoy the view. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

Easy to land on top of another plane and you never see it till you hear it. The Drifter is about the best there is for vis from the front seat. Try one if you haven't , and enjoy the view. Nev

Yep, I love the vis from the Drifter. Sometimes being out in the cold is annoying, but then I ride in an enclosed cockpit, and realise how much visibility I lose, along with most of the physical cues that I normally use when flying.

 

 

[poteroo]

There were likely several factors contributing to this accident.

 

Possibly the instructor wasn't contributing to the scan/lookout that should have been happening in the DA40. All to often we're pointing out runway cues, and flying 'numbers' when doing circuits. Not only should instructors continually urge the student to scan,(particularly ahead of the wing in the direction of turn), but they need to be conducting their own high/low scan in parallel. Instructors, (of all pilots), should be aware that other pilots can pop up in all sorts of unlikely locations when joining circuits, and that in faster types they'll often be late with position calls.

 

The elderly Bonanza pilot might have suffered from some of the problems alluded to by onetrack, but its also possible that he missed any calls from the DA40, (hearing loss), and he joined circuit at a position where he couldn't see other traffic: an overhead 'join' at 1500 agl really makes sense in faster types. It's not as if you can't quickly decelerate a Bonanza and get down into a leg of the circuit. Similarly, there's no need to be rocking down late downwind and base at 120KIAS - just because the Bo has high maximum extension speeds for both gear and flap. 90KIAS is safer in all respects.

 

Not just the elderly suffer from careless flying syndrome. Quite a few years back now, (and Nev would recall this), 2 CASA pilots in a Bonanza, taking off at Tocumwal, hit a glider on final from the opposite direction with catastrophic results for all. In that case you had 2 pairs of commercially experienced eyes and ears - yet it happened.

 

Familiarity breeds contempt as the saying goes. With pilots, it's been said that 300hrs and 1000hrs are high risk stages of a career: perhaps retirement is as well? In my book, it's less about the physical impediments in elderly people, but more to do with their mental attitude and longstanding flight discipline standards.[]

 

 

[onetrack]

I wasn't engaged in "old-people bashing" - merely pointing out that the physical and mental deficiencies of advancing age creep up on you.

 

I'm 67, and I'm just starting to learn what happens to the old body as it ages - and the need to be consistently rigorous with all safety-oriented tasks, and to not let bad habits creep up on you.

 

Older people are high on the pedestrian-fatalities statistics, and you have to ask why. It's because of simple failure to consistently follow good safety habits - along with reduced hearing ability, reduced muscle ability, and becoming single-task focussed (crossing the road) - instead of ensuring they're carrying out the multi-tasking mode, of looking both directions for traffic, and looking for traffic "springing out of nowhere on you", from side-streets.

 

I have this vision in my brain of the 79 yr old Bonanza driver saying, with a startled look, "where in h**** bells, did that Diamond come from??"

 

 

[facthunter]

You are still doing it. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

In regards to the high number of elderly deaths as pedestrians I think you will find if you could get reliable statistics on the age of all pedestrians hit compared to killed and I don't think the elderly would be overly represented BUT the elderly don't bounce so well and will be more likely to suffer a more serious injury than a younger more agile individual.

 

At least the majority of elderly pedestrians aren't getting around with their heads buried in their mobiles and for sure they may be a little hard of hearing but no worse than someone with their ears full of earplugs playing their tunes.

 

 

[Yenn]

Younger pilots can have their problems too. I have observed lack of good lookout, incorrect radio frequency, not turning the transponder on, generally not showing good airmanship.

 

I agree that age may bring its problems, but they are no more than the lack of years of experience. I would have hoped that people posting here had some idea of what caused an accident, before wildly saying it was an old bloke, not looking out.

 

Onetrack, I put you in the lower age group and wonder if you would see more out of your plane than an old bloke like me.

 

In my opinion one of the biggest factors in mid air collisions is the poor visibility out of a lot of aircraft.

 

 

[facthunter]

Not looking is not confined to the elderly. It's an attitude thing as much as anything else. Looking behind you is not achievable in most planes. I still skid the plane to clear left before turning base if I think someone might be there. Tandem seating is better vision and you use all pairs of eyes where it is critical. Lanes of entry and the final approach stand out as high risk areas. Aircraft "funnel" into these places. Nev

 

 

[farri]

I have this vision in my brain of the 79 yr old Bonanza driver saying, with a startled look, "where in h**** bells, did that Diamond come from??"

Is there no possibility that you have the wrong vision?...I don`t think it`s the right thing to do, to call the 79 year old pilot, a "Bonanza driver."

 

 

[Robbo]

Easy to land on top of another plane and you never see it till you hear it. The Drifter is about the best there is for vis from the front seat. Try one if you haven't , and enjoy the view. Nev

This is what happened to a good friend of mine at Moorabbin.

Miss ya Holly

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

more than likely the bonanza crashed into the diamond. The speed difference on landing is far greater from the bonanza. I would think the bonanza would have came in from behind and on top of the diamond

 

 

[turboplanner]

more than likely the bonanza crashed into the diamond. The speed difference on landing is far greater from the bonanza. I would think the bonanza would have came in from behind and on top of the diamond

In which case Old People Obsession didn't play a part.

We can't do much about our downwind track because it is determined by aircraft performance and that should be the hint that altitude is everything. Post-WW2 instructors were dynamite on an exact altitude from the start of downwind on because they knew you couldn't see aircraft below you from a low wing aircraft. That's the Achilles heel of Australia's see and be seen policy. The Base radio call acted as an additional safety warning.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

It was probably just he didnt see the Diamond with the view from the Bonanza and either didnt hear a radio call or there wasnt one made. I always call base when I fly...not final usually but always a base call

 

 

[JG3]

A really good reason for slower aircraft to keep final as short as possible to avoid being on the same track for any longer than necessary. Excellent visibility from base out the final approach before turning final with just enough room to line up. Not suitable for faster aircraft that need a long final to bleed off speed, but those are the ones that I fear running over me from behind.... Minimum time on the same track cuts risk of conflict.

 

 

[cooperplace]

it's a really good idea to be aware of all the other aircraft in the circuit. of course if someone made say a straight in approach with no calls, in a fast plane, then this could happen. And by the way the last time I saw 2 planes nearly collide in the circuit (one was on base, I don't know where the other had come from, he was all over the place) the latter plane was flown by a 77-year old pilot. He died 2 days later pulling a steep turn base onto final.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you come in high (on approach profile) with a low wing you have the least chance of seeing another aircraft in front. You'd only use mid 80 knots with the Beech from memory. Is the diamond much slower? Hurricanes used to land on each other but I don't think any similarly configured plane would he much different. Long nose and large wing underneath. You need a tower for re assurance. Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

The idea of a prang like this gives me the willies. Be careful you people. Know where the other planes in the circuit are. You last chance for a spacing adjustment is turning base. Distance to run is your variant. Speed changes are not that significant in changing time over small distances in the circuit. Nev

 

 

[frank marriott]

It's an attitude thing as much as anything else.

I think Nev has hit the nail on the head. There are many pilots I am happy to fly congested circuits (even formation although less) with and there are some I give "plenty of room" and has nothing to do with age - "Attitude" is one of the biggest considerations followed by experience (and not just time flying in circles) - the loud mouth is normally a given and the excessive use of a radio.

[Robbo]

From memory something like this happend at Latrobe where the young student landed on top of an ultralight.