Closing runways on strong crosswind days

[Steve G]

At an Eyre Peninsula airport last week the groundsman decided to grade the dirt runway during forecast 22 knot cross winds and Notammed accordingly. This forced every aircraft to either not land or take off or abort. Or to land in difficult conditions near or at crosswind component. The question is in the interests of safety given the extreme wx should the council have abandoned the whip and opened the runway. There was no provision for men and equipment to vacate the into wind runway so it was a right angle crosswind or go sway, Over to you?

 

 

[rhysmcc]

No, as pic it's your decision to go flying in those conditions.

 

 

[Robbo]

Plus the weather changes so often and they probably had the work organised weeks in advance.

 

 

[Love to fly]

There was provision for women to vacate? Seriously if it was notammed pilots should be aware of it before they depart and up to them to make the decision to fly or not. Council work plans would be organised well ahead.

 

 

[facthunter]

The Works would be notified , (or perhaps not, reading the above) If the forecast Wx indicates the crosswind is above your aircrafts figure or what you consider YOUR limit you carry fuel for and nominate a suitable alternate. You already know that . I don't know what duty the Council consider they should give to Aviation and how far away another suitable aerodrome is. If it's the same as "most" it wouldn't be much. An aerodrome is a community amenity. Those who oppose them operating still want to be able to ride in an air ambulance and have their kids learn to fly sometimes. Firefighting is another aspect but the helicopter fraternity have been pushing "their" method as better than fixed wing. Probably multiples more expensive.

 

Any time one flies somewhere there is always the risk of a plane coming to grief and rendering the runway(s) unusable for a fair amount of time. A bit of extra fuel is welcome...Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

There are quite a few alternate strips on the Eyre Peninsular

 

 

[cscotthendry]

Had something similar happen on our outback trip. We were coming into Broken Hill with a 50+ Kt tailwind from the west and on the ground at BHI, the wind was 20Kt gusting to 30 straight down the cross strip ... except the cross strip was closed and we had to land on the main runway with the wind directly across the runway. Our Legend is rated to 7 kt crosswind component, but I can tell you that with a lot of control twisting and swearing it can manage 20 kt gusting to 30. It wasn't elegant or pretty, but we walked away and the plane was still usable.

 

 

[facthunter]

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, depending on how the cookie crumbles. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

If I had to land in a crosswind that was 3 - 4 times my planes stated capability and had no ability to get to an alternate I would seriously look at why the cross strip was closed, then if that wasn't an option landing into wind across the active would be high up the list (I see no sense in nailing the centreline "just because").

 

That is all assuming no alternate was available which is rarely ever true, we are taught precautionary search and landings and I find nothing wrong with finding a nice paddock or road that suits the purpose so don't get so focused on runways that you pass up a safer option.

 

 

[facthunter]

You would be well advised to seek a better landing "place" rather than crash on arrival if that was a serious prospect. If you have done a lot of crosswind landings, how it feels at about 100 ft.( How stable you are and what control authority you have. How much crab angle and /or wing down) is the assessment you must make... or if in doubt go around. Not sure there are a lot of alternative landing places around BH... 7 knots is a very low figure for a X/w limit. (Same as the Tiger Moth, from memory). Wind velocity normally drops off a lot near the surface so you may not get the full extent of the wind you experienced at height. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

My opinion.

 

Irrespective of who made a mistake if no diversion is available an aircraft always has priority if safety is involved or stress of weather... there will be paperwork, explaining to do, possibly even compulsory retraining...but if it is a matter of genuine safety, call them up ask them to vacate immediately and land. Then worry about who is to blame or whats required.

 

But as far as them vacating with scheduled work, properly notammed, no the pilots have done the wrong thing either by not checking weather, notams or both. Having said that a pilot should never jeopardise safety, by not wanting to be responsible, or admit to a mistake. Take the safest option then worry about any administrative consequences later.

 

 

[jetjr]

Off topic but I see EIS into Western Sydney recommends head to head operations at night, ie landing one direction taking off the other - talk about compromising wind conditions let alone ATC problems. How would you schedule that?

 

 

[facthunter]

Looks like the sort of thing that eventuates when the decision is based on BS not reality, and they obviously haven't consulted pilots. nev

 

 

[jetjr]

positions flight paths over low density population to SW for noise.......

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a silly place to put it. Probably fog prone and people will whinge about noise They want cheap airfares and city life with all the action, but no noise, smog, crime,traffic congestion etc Nev

 

 

[Yenn]

I flew into an airshow at Bundaberg a few years ago. Strong crosswind on the main strip and they had closed the into wind cross strip. the airshow was notammed, but no mention of cross strip being closed. I did land the Corby and it was interesting, another pilot in a Very Easy was considering changing his underwear. The landing was at our discretion, but I would not have wanted to be a low time pilot in a touchy taildragger. Sometimes I wonder about the behaviour of those in charge.

 

 

[rhysmcc]

Off topic but I see EIS into Western Sydney recommends head to head operations at night, ie landing one direction taking off the other - talk about compromising wind conditions let alone ATC problems. How would you schedule that?

That's not unusual, Brisbane has a similar procedure. Traffic volume and weather are taken into account.

 

 

[Steve G]

I was taking off not landing and had a ten hour flying day ahead to get home.

 

The town had no power from previous afternoon no phone no internet no forecast no notams, so was departing VFR NOSAR until plan could be radiod in. This was quite legal until a forecast can be obtained.

 

I felt under the circumstances that works could have been rescheduled.

 

CASA agrees

 

At Safety seminar this week.

 

CASA said I could have required and requested the runway in which case ARO was obliged to cease and works men and equipment move within 15 mins,

 

MOS STANDARD.

 

MOS also says in such cross wind all cross wind works should be planned for another day if it created a hazard.

 

 

[Love to fly]

I was taking off not landing and had a ten hour flying day ahead to get home.The town had no power from previous afternoon no phone no internet no forecast no notams, so was departing VFR NOSAR until plan could be radiod in. This was quite legal until a forecast can be obtained.

I felt under the circumstances that works could have been rescheduled.

 

CASA agrees

 

At Safety seminar this week.

 

CASA said I could have required and requested the runway in which case ARO was obliged to cease and works men and equipment move within 15 mins,

 

MOS STANDARD.

 

MOS also says in such cross wind all cross wind works should be planned for another day if it created a hazard.

Interesting that even if it is notammed they have to reopen the runway within 15 minutes. If they were in the middle of grading the runway might have been a tad bumpy? First pass over my farm's dirt runway usually leaves it horrible. It's only when it's finished that it's smooth. And if they were resurfacing or carrying out other works it might have been seriously not possible to have the runway usable in a rush. Just wondering.

 

 

[aro]

I was taking off not landing and had a ten hour flying day ahead to get home.

If you're on the ground I don't see what the problem is? The nature of our flying means that sometimes weather means you don't go...

 

 

[DrZoos]

If you're on the ground I don't see what the problem is? The nature of our flying means that sometimes weather means you don't go...

The nature of flying also means that sometimes your in the air when it all turns to shit, especially if you travel a bit, as the forecasts aren't always entirely true

Sure local flights are a piece of cake... but tryin doing some multi day trips in the southern half of Aus and see how it goes....eventually you will see some non ideal weather

 

 

[poteroo]

If I had to land in a crosswind that was 3 - 4 times my planes stated capability and had no ability to get to an alternate I would seriously look at why the cross strip was closed, then if that wasn't an option landing into wind across the active would be high up the list (I see no sense in nailing the centreline "just because").That is all assuming no alternate was available which is rarely ever true, we are taught precautionary search and landings and I find nothing wrong with finding a nice paddock or road that suits the purpose so don't get so focused on runways that you pass up a safer option.

Very sensible SDQDI. When I owned my Cub, C170, and C180 - landing diagonally was SOP - even at Jandakot. Every knot of crosswind that you cutoff by operating diagonally is another knot of headwind that you now have to your advantage. My current Brumby will only manage 12 kts x/w according to the POH, but it will land in <75m if you turn it into a 15-20kt wind. On sealed runways - just select a track so as to not take out any lights!!

 

 

[facthunter]

Pots you can fly parallel to the runway on the downwind side and as you slow up turn a bit into wind and flare, but you'll probably get black flagged. Nev