Quote CASA FAQ re ADS-B

[DrZoos]

Quote CASA FAQ re ADS-B

 

from Request Rejected

 

I keep trying to link relevant info, but some silly update no makes them

 

all rejected

 

Anyway back on topic

 

Can I use the Dynon Skyview Transponder as an ADS-B solution in Australia?

 

Yes, provided you have a certified GPS in your aircraft. The Dynon Skyview Transponder is a fully certified device and is ADS-B OUT compliant. However no GPS that Dynon sells is certified and thus the Dynon GPS solution is not suitable as a position source for ADS-B in Australia.

 

Is it just me or is this another great example of morons in charge

 

 

[kaz3g]

I guess what they are telling you is that the transponder is fine but the GPS source provided by Dynon is not. So you need to link the transponder to a TSO GPS which will cost you heaps if you want ADSB.

 

Perhaps you can convince Dynon to seek certification of their GPS?

 

I bluetooth a Dual GPS receiver to the iPad to assist in obtaining good signals. On my last trip to Alice I took particular care to check the accuracy of the OzRunways moving map on my iPad against the ground and was amazed at how good it was. The dog fences were right where the chart said they should be.

 

Although a Garmin 430 is certified, in my view the size of the display makes it almost impossible to get the same sort of accuracy as the iPad so, while ASA might know exactly where you are via ADSB, you might not. Fortunately, the AUSTER is happiest at lower levels and the most sophisticated instrument in it is the one with the ball and a little airplane in it so I'm happy with my mode C which works fine.

 

Kaz

 

 

[mnewbery]

Aside: Why do you want ADS-B out and what can't you do without it?

 

Any Technical Standard Order (e.g. TSO-C145 and later but not TSO-C129) compliant WAAS GPS that outputs ARINC-429 or serial RS-232 can be used.

 

That includes Garmin GTN or GNS 430W/530W and any NMEA 0183 compliant TSO-C145 GPS. The Skyview system needs an ARINC-429 to Dynon (D9 style) converter box but it allows two ARINC-429 devices to connect.

 

The statement about the Dynon SV-GPS-2020 ADSB out source not being guaranteed to work in Australia is correct based on Dynon's web based publications. Neither the SV-GPS-2020 or SV-GPS-250 (a cheaper version but still WAAS capable) are TSO'd. This means the yankee doodle IFR pilots can't use it either.

 

A mode S transponder with no ADSB out will give the plane driver access to Class G and Class D airspace below 10,000 feet (A100 e.g. not yet in a flight level).

 

These ADSB-Out transponders and the TSO'd GPS source get the plane driver access to everything else (A,B,C and E plus G and D above A100). If this is where you need to fly, say from a Class C airspace then the next time your VH registered VFR day only aircraft needs a replacement transponder it must be mode S (ADS-B capable) but it doesn't need a TSO'd GPS position source to be legal. "No source" would be ok too. I would presume without knowing that you could get away with a non-TSO'd portable WAAS GPS in a VFR aircraft below 250 knots because nobody would notice the difference. There is a loophole about not being able to regulate a device that is not attached permanently to the aircraft.

 

Aircraft operating under IFR will only gain access to applicable airspace and all aircraft ground movements at Brisbane, Sydney etc (they use surface movement guidance and control) with ADS-B transmitting. This is as of 4 February 2016.

 

Refer CASA CAO20.18 paragraph 9D.10 and onwards for more details. Note that TSO-C145 means "can do WAAS GPS" but WAAS does not mean "is TSO-C145 compliant". The difference is in the RAIM implementation but specifically the location output reliability. This is about the GPS source not the transponder which falls under a different set of TSO (oh oh) 's.

 

Seriously, why go down this path?

 

 

[KRviator]

Why go down this path? Because Dynon have a $700 solution to getting true 1090 ADS-B in a lot of aircraft, using a GPS that has been tested and proven (by the British CAA, IIRC) to provide better performance than an uber-expensive Garmin that is TSO'd.

 

Because the U.S. FAA have decreed that so long as the GPS position source meets the performance standards of the relevant TSO, than it is acceptable to use it for ADS-B out in experimental aircraft. And this from the country that invented the bloody TSO's! Yet CAsA, as always, are 20 years behind.

 

If they were really serious about us wanting ADS-B, they would permit the Dynon GPS-2020 and Garmin GPS-20A in experimental aircraft - under the VFR initially, for testing if necessary - but nooooo, they mandate we have to spend the better part of $5,000 for a FreeFlight 1201 or $10K+ if we want a TSO-145/6 position source with a screen on it!

 

Look at the ADS-B vs the SSR coverage maps and then consider how much further you have the safety net of flight following, or directed safety alerts because you are transmitting your call sign and position to ATC.

 

EDIT: HERE is a link to th UK official testing of Dynon/Garmin non-certified GPS's with the comment essentially being "they should be permitted and installation encourages forthwith".

 

 

[mnewbery]

If you aren't going VH registered or IFR or into controlled airspace I doubt anyone will notice a non-TSO'd WAAS location source. Caveat. This is not advice and I am not responsible for others actions

 

 

[GeoffK]

Mnewbery, I asked Horsham Aviation about the Dynon transponder and according to them , its a grey area if it can be used at all. The transponder is TSO'd for sure, but it is controlled by a non - TSO'd Dynon Skyview. In some peoples eyes, this is not good enough.

 

Similarly there is the Skyview radio - based on the TSO'd Trig unit (who also did the Dynon transponder) - which is not TSO'd so cannot be used in controlled airspace.

 

The writing is on the wall that CASA is eventually going to be overwhelmed by a tidal wave of non TSO'd but demonstrably superior, and cheaper, avionics and will eventually have, with Airservices to relent and allow fitment and primary use.

 

In the meantime, since I don't want to d anything illegal, Im stuck with having to give panel space to a trig radio and transponder and to forget about ADSB - out.

 

 

[KRviator]

ASA have come out and say the Dynon transponder is fine for ADS-B/Mode-S so I wouldn't worry too much about that. I have one in my RV and don't have th slightest concern about some overzealous CAsA muppet making an issue of it during a ramp check.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Both Dynon's transponder and com radio are made by Trig and the TX/RX remote boxes are virtually physically identical to the Trig-branded units, but with slightly different software. The Trig branded versions will only partially interact with Dynon's displays, unlike the Dynon versions which are obviously fully compatible.

 

The end result of the subtle differences was that:

 

- the Dynon transponder is TSO'd

 

- the Dynon 25 kHz radio is not TSO'd

 

- the Dynon 8.33 kHz version is TSO'd

 

- all the equivalent Trig branded units are TSO'd (their original com radio only ever came in an 8.33 kHz TSO version - it was Dynon who asked for it only in a 25 kHz non-TSO version originally, I'm speculating to keep the cost down)

 

So by the letter of the law:

 

- a Dynon Skyview transponder (the higher power one of course) connected to a certified GPS position source (which is not any Dynon branded GPS unfortunately) will or should be considered Australian ADSB compliant

 

- a Dynon Skyview 8.33 kHZ com radio can be used in Australian controlled airspace but the 25 kHZ version cannot.

 

That's my understanding, anyway.

 

In fact I don't know what the Horsham Aviation people are talking about. There's no such thing as a "non TSO'd transponder" as far as I'm aware. They all have to be TSO'd. The stuff connected to them may or may not have to be TSO'd depending on the certification of the aircraft itself.

 

 

[KRviator]

Just to clarify the above, the GPS position source must* be TSO'd to C145/146 standards. Most all TSO C129 GPS' such as the non-WAAS G430/G530, KLN89/90/94 series and others are not good enough for ADS-B out down here.

 

So we need at least a G430W if you want a screen, or a FreeFlight1201 if you want a blind ADS-B position source.

 

*'Some' C129 GPS' are apparently OK but I havent been able to find exactly which ones they are.

 

 

[dutchroll]

To further blur the issue, CASA have formed a group to look at doing something similar to what is happening in the USA. To encourage the uptake of ADSB-out equipment among the general aviation community they are exploring ways to reduce the cost by allowing GA to connect lesser certified GPS equipment to their mode S transponders and be "compliant" for VFR flight with ADSB-out.

 

But at the speed they work, don't hold your breath.

 

 

[Yenn]

Transponders have to be checked every 2 years to be legal. Can a Dynon set up pass the checks? If not could it be legal?

 

Maybe some time the powers that be will be dragged into the 21st century and approve whatever will do the job rather than insist on spending milions to get a piece of paper saying it complies.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The problem with Dynon is which bits meet CASA's requirements and which bits don't, but I believe in theory at least, you should be able to get a perfectly legal transponder setup which passes all the tests, using the Dynon class 1 transponder (which is TSO'd).

 

However you'd need

 

- a certified altitude encoder (the inbuilt Skyview one isn't)

 

- a certified GPS input if you want ADSB (neither Skyview GPS is certified)