When to flare

[Darkwalker]

Hi Guys,

 

After many years of laying on my back in a glider finding the flare point was very easy. But now that im in a tecnam I'm finding it hard to pick the flare point being so high up.

 

Any tips?

 

Cookie

 

 

[greybeard]

Watch the instructors hands, when they go tense and white gripping their knees it's time to flare.

 

Look at the end of the runway as you round out

 

 

[cooperplace]

how can he watch both at once?

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep I agree dark. I thought I was pretty good at landing with the Mosquito, now I know it was a real easy-landing glider.

 

But all gliders have their wings closer to the ground than a Technam so they have a good ground-effect cushion, and they have those big air-brakes.

 

I reckon landing a plane, especially a high-wing one, really is harder.

 

 

[Nightmare]

Hi Guys,After many years of laying on my back in a glider finding the flare point was very easy. But now that im in a tecnam I'm finding it hard to pick the flare point being so high up.

 

Any tips?

 

Cookie

I guess, like the gliders, aircraft have 2 stages for Landing, the first is getting into the plane, taxiing and the take off. It is there you can orientate where you sit in relation to the height above the runway.Hope that helps, otherwise, look at the

 

for landing, it helped me.Tony

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Maybe have the instructor demonstrate a couple now that you've done a few. Also helps to have the instructor "think aloud" telling where they're looking and what cues they're using. Never underestimate the value of a good demonstration.

 

 

[Aldo]

Hi Guys,After many years of laying on my back in a glider finding the flare point was very easy. But now that im in a tecnam I'm finding it hard to pick the flare point being so high up.

 

Any tips?

 

Cookie

Just before you land.

 

Just fly the aeroplane no different to just flying the glider just a different machine.

 

Aldo

 

 

[Jay_1984]

Hey,

 

Three things I was shown that helped me-

 

1. Don't think of it as a flare, think of it as rounding out. That is transitioning from descend to level flight ( but only really close to the ground)

 

2. Spend some time practicing flying just above the stall (at safe height and with an instructor first time) with just enough power to keep straight and level. The attitude of the nose will be pretty similar to where it'll be on round out and help with how things should look.

 

3. As mentioned before, when the runway appears to expand out quite quickly, that is the point to begin the round out to level flight. Keep holding level and let gravity to the rest. Check out link

 

 

Hope it helps and have fun with the tecnam. Is it high or low wing?

 

 

[facthunter]

What works for one doesn't necessarily work for others. The seat height is very variable when you change planes . You have to cope with variables. It affects HOW you judge your height when landing sure, but the principle is still the same. The key word is JUDGE your new situation. Some rely on the grass rushing past, (texture). Clearly that doesn't work on a tarmac. Some rely on the presentation of the regular shape of a runway. That doesn't work on an allover grass field. A landing area is a flat PLANE that you are descending towards. Somehow you must judge at what point you modify that descent to achieve (a) reduction in sink rate . (b) a judged flare onto the surface that can be modified to cope with the inevitable variables one encounters, such as... wind gradient /gusts. the airspeed you approached at, the height of your flare point and the rate to pull the stick back. It can't be done by numbers without the judgement and putting the work in. Nev

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

What helped me was to not think of it as flaring or landing. Try not to land the aeroplane but keep it flying just above the runway. Make a gradual transition to straight and level rather than a 'flare'. This flying lesson I did with my instructor will show you what I mean:

 

 

 

 

 

[cooperplace]

exactly that worked for me too: when I was learning I'd say "I'm NOT going to land this plane, I'm just going to fly a foot above the runway". Worked every time.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Landing is a funny thing. The B767 was notoriously hard to touch down smoothly and one day I did two greasers in a row as we alternated the flying. The other guy said "how do you accomplish such great landings like that?" to which I replied "I have no idea!" The next day I did a shocker, so we were all cool. There was no magic after all.

 

The Pitts is a fraction of the size but can be equally hard to land consistently well.

 

The principles I was taught for landing when I did RAAF pilot training were:

 

1) it's your peripheral "picture" which is most vital to achieving the right flare height

 

2) when you're sitting there about to takeoff, note what your peripheral picture looks like. That's about what you want for touchdown - flare when you think you're approaching that picture.

 

3) when you do flare and pull the power off, you're looking right down the end of the runway and holding that attitude. Don't let the nose drop.

 

But as Nev was alluding to, it's not an exact science and takes practice. If you bugger it up, go around (and I have done that in the Pitts - it was a god-awful approach and landing in good conditions). You don't salvage pride trying to recover what you've already screwed up. You salvage pride by trying it again and making it right.

 

 

[ben87r]

When I started flying the Twin Comanche the guy I was flying with said watch her because as soon as you think you are getting the hang of it she will remind you to pay attention. At first I thought he was half joking but it's exactly what happened (C210 to some extent the same) the longer I flew it the harder consistent landings became.

 

 

[naremman]

Early on my Instructor, who was ex Army with C180 and Porter time intomed: "look at a duck land, down into ground effect, gradually increase of attack, Plop!!" Has worked well for both the ducks, and me.

 

The apex of the learning experience was training for what was then a Class 4 Instrument Rating now known as Night VFR. Remove external visual references except the flare path and you quickly gain an appreciation of awaiting the flare path to start flattening out and the appropriate measure of backstick. What I would consider some of my best landing I have ever made have been at night. What works well in the night environment transposes well into the daylight hours.

 

Taking things to another level Spot Landings under the ALAC format poses further challenges. Clearing a four foot fence 50 metres before the spot poses its own dilemna. How often has a Piper Warrior featured in the placings? Having a draggy aeroplane, without nasty stall characteristics is a decided advantage, My Airtourer fits the bill quite well. A controlled descent at the point of the stall onto the spot would be the best description..

 

There is no universal formula for determining what is the appropriate flaring technique for each pilot/aeroplane combination. I well remember taking a neighbor to pick up his C180 from maintenance in our C172 and the very audible exclamation as I commenced my flare, when he anticipated my efforts would have us rebounding past the moon! It was not my worst landing!

 

 

[DWF]

I would suggest that the flare should be commenced well before the wheels reach the ground.

 

A useful technique that I have found helps some people is to round out early (high) and fly along the runway at landing speed with a little power on letting the aircraft slowly settle towards the runway till the wheels just touch then try to keep the aircraft about 30cm above the ground while flying along the rest of the runway/airstrip - and going around as you near the end of the runway.

 

This low pass method helps some pilots get the 'picture' (peripheral and ahead) of what it should look like as the aircraft touches down.

 

It also helps with low speed control near the ground and practices your go-arounds.

 

In my experience many pilots who have trouble landing are too fast at round-out and/or do not hold off long enough (and try to 'push' the aircraft onto the ground).

 

 

[Jay_1984]

+1 in regards to the "not a universal technique"

 

Just finished a CSU and retractable undercarriage endo in an Arrow during the week.

 

Going between the Arrow and the Jab 160 I've been flying lately really shows the difference in mindet on approach.

 

One is a feather needing to be forced down, the other a brick needing the effort to keeping it in the air. I'll let you work out which was which

 

 

[dutchroll]

Also if you're having trouble with landings, have a think about how you're setting yourself up on final approach and make sure you're getting that right.

 

Instructors can often predict how a landing is going to turn out well before you arrive at the runway. This is not because instructors have magical powers. This is because they can see your approach path is too high or too low, your aimpoint is wandering up and down the runway, your speed is high or low, etc.

 

(Sorry instructors......didn't mean to shatter the magical aura!)

 

 

[mike_perth]

I'll add to the no universal method statement I've just moved from Piper (low wing) to Cessna (high wing) and wow what a difference in the flair. The picture looked kind of the same but I thought I needed to hit the gym for the Cessna the amount of back pressure on the yoke to hold it off was in my Piper mind herculean.

 

Suffice to say my first few landings were very firm!

 

 

[facthunter]

Don't let "feel" throw you off. Do what must be done to have the plane do what you want it to do. I find it difficult to comprehend doing away with the concept of flair.

 

Why? Your plane is descending on approach at a set speed and rate of descent. (Stabilised approach which we all like to have.) If we leave it alone it will keep on doing that till (sometimes) ground effect will modify it or YOU do something about it to reduce the rate of sink. Ie pull the stick back enough to reduce the rate of descent from about 650 fpm to something less dramatic. It takes energy to do that. Extra lift ='s extra drag so you start to slow up as a result and then you keep doing it as you raise the nose to continue to provide the lift required to hold the plane off more and more to land at a slower speed with the nose raised a fair amount. This is your energy reducing with a speed reduction which is desired when landing. You aim to land slowly and with the weight off the nosewheel, and your need for a large stall margin doesn't apply at the point of touchdown. Ground effect helps and also helps you to float and float and ....

 

The bit that bothers most pilots is that which everyone notices. most. The actual touchdown , and how smooth it is, (or isn't) but setting that up is very much a part of the whole picture and you have just done that, so.. The trick then is to adjust the lift you need with the speed decay happening, ( the hold off) to arrive " controlled" (ALWAYS) at a low sink rate, (or almost none) as the wheels touch.

 

During this part the rate you do things is dependent on the circumstances you find your self in. If you are "fast" you will have to wait a bit as the speed (energy) washes off and perhaps pull the power off earlier than you normally would. If there's hot air over the runway and you get a late unexpected high sink rate, you will have to do things faster. A more rapid pull back and perhaps a stab of power to save it. You have to put the work in. Doing it by numbers works perhaps SOME of the time, but it's not a good technique. Nev

 

 

[Hargraves]

I trained in a j3 cub then brought a GT 500 Quicksilver as my first aircraft. The nose wheel configeration combined with your bum being 18" off the ground at touchdown was an interesting transition to make but very nice. I then brought a storch muster which you climb up into and places you bum 5' off the ground at touchdown so different again, but they all have the same denominator and that is to set up to flare and look up to the end of the strip at windsock hight, as I was instructed to do. Cheers Hargraves.

 

 

[facthunter]

SDQDI... Perhaps you might elaborate on your caution, and provide some more input. Nev

 

 

[SDQDI]

SDQDI... Perhaps you might elaborate on your caution, and provide some more input. Nev

My apologies Nev! I was trying to work out what you were on about when asking me to elaborate on my caution and thought you were talking about me cautioning others with words, I didn't click straight away and your post refferred me back to here and I thought you were asking for my opinion on flaring and to pass on some wise words of caution and I was thinking what on earth could I tell people that hasn't already been said? I have only around 300 hrs compared to tens of thousands of hours of people like yourself and Dutchy so I reread the thread to try and see what had been missed and then I spotted my 'caution'!

So please accept my belated apology it was a big thumb small screen moment and I didn't click with the new "like" names so it took me longer than was appropriate to remove it.

 

as a post script I find I flare perfectly after the first bounce.

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm quite happy to elaborate on anything I have posted. I'm not telling everybody what to do. Just an analysis of the process . Everyone will find their own solution. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Im located at a relatively busy regional airport with a lot of small aircraft coming and going.It never ceases to amaze me how many pilots touch down with very excessive speed and a huge high speed ground roll. They come in round out and put it straight on the ground without even holding off. At a guess id say its more than 20-30% of all pilots i see. Some dont even bother protecting the nose wheel, almost flat landing the thing they are so hot. Many of these ar VH, but some are RAA.

 

Some pilots prob need to be reminded the safest landing speed is the slowest possible landing speed and this involves a small bump , not a silk smooth hot landing. Landing hot might mean you can impress your passenger or yourself, with no bump, but it is a bad habit to get into, especially if it replaces your correct landing technique.

 

I was taught by 3 instructors and with BFR make that 4, RAA aircraft have pathetically weak nose wheels ...

 

Come in , keep asking yourself "Am I there yet" "Am I there yet" "Am I there yet" as soon as the runway dramatically widens begin round out and hold it in ground effect, initially around 3 feet letting it sink to t 1ft and continue to hold it just off the ground till it wont fly any longer, increasing back pressure till it plops onto the ground, making the ground roll far safer. Then continue to hold your nose wheel off till lack of elevator authority wont allow you to any longer. Then still hold full back pressure on elevator to reduce weight on nose wheel while taxiing with ailerons into the wind.

 

 

[Darkwalker]

Thanks guys. Good to see such and active community.