When to flare

[Darkwalker]

23

 

Im located at a relatively busy regional airport with a lot of small aircraft coming and going.It never ceases to amaze me how many pilots touch down with very excessive speed and a huge high speed ground roll. They come in round out and put it straight on the ground without even holding off. At a guess id say its more than 20-30% of all pilots i see. Some dont even bother protecting the nose wheel, almost flat landing the thing they are so hot. Many of these ar VH, but some are RAA.Some pilots prob need to be reminded the safest landing speed is the slowest possible landing speed and this involves a small bump , not a silk smooth hot landing. Landing hot might mean you can impress your passenger or yourself, with no bump, but it is a bad habit to get into, especially if it replaces your correct landing technique.

 

I was taught by 3 instructors and with BFR make that 4, RAA aircraft have pathetically weak nose wheels ...

 

Come in , keep asking yourself "Am I there yet" "Am I there yet" "Am I there yet" as soon as the runway dramatically widens begin round out and hold it in ground effect, initially around 3 feet letting it sink to t 1ft and continue to hold it just off the ground till it wont fly any longer, increasing back pressure till it plops onto the ground, making the ground roll far safer. Then continue to hold your nose wheel off till lack of elevator authority wont allow you to any longer. Then still hold full back pressure on elevator to reduce weight on nose wheel while taxiing with ailerons into the wind.

HI Drzoos,

 

Yes my current instructor keeps reminding me that the Tecnam has a very weak nose and to always keep the pressure of it as long as possible when landing and taking off.

 

 

[facthunter]

Having less weight on the nosewheel won't just affect the "survival" of the structure, Its got a lot to do with directional stability and control. If you land too fast , the weight will not be on the mainwheels and it will bite you one day. When tricycle gear first became common in the 60's there was a spate of loss of control on landing incidents caused by weight transfer to the nosewheel. Braking accentuates the effect. You have plenty of directional control with rudder alone after touchdown. We always tried to get the stall horn to beep just before the wheels touched. You can lapse into just flying the plane onto the runway at flying speed at locations where you always have plenty of runway. A BAD habit to get into. Lazy flying. Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

23HI Drzoos,

Yes my current instructor keeps reminding me that the Tecnam has a very weak nose and to always keep the pressure of it as long as possible when landing and taking off.

Dont worry its not just the Technam, its 3/4 of our fleet..

Even the Foxbat which has an incredibly strong nosewheel , relatively speaking, our members have collapsed two of them in about 7 years. That's in about 6000 hours flying, but it does happen. I have seen several others on their nose and some are GA with nose wheels far stronger than ours including a Liberty and a 172.

 

 

[facthunter]

You should be careful of the load on the nosewheel no matter what plane you fly.

 

Zoos you made a comment hold off till the elevators lose authority. (At that point you can't, of course ). That doesn't apply on large aircraft where you "fly" the nosewheel. (control carefully how it contacts the runway) after you have landed the mains. That's not emphasised on a lighty, sometimes, but it's still worthwhile to consider how it falls to the runway especially if the brakes are applied, tending to throw it forward. On a U/L you should use backstick, during taxiing and especially when applying a bit of power to get through a soft patch or a slight dip, or on the early part of the take off roll on a soft field keep the weight off the nosewheel by holding the stick back initially,( but still retain precise control of the unstick point).

 

The only time you wouldn't do this is when taxiing downwind in a strong wind. (even with a taildragger). Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

Hi Nev , with all due respect given, i think you need to re-read my post,

 

The first speaks about holding off till the aircraft stalls onto the runway

 

The second sentence speaks about continuing to use elevator authority to hold nose wheel off once the mains ar on the runway

 

My reference to elevator authority, doesn't mean stop using it, it just means they will lose authority to the point they cannot keep nose wheel up. Which may not be true in all aircraft at all throttle settings and ground speeds.

 

The third speaks about continuing to use elevator even when the nose wheel is on the ground. ie while taxiing and rolling.

 

Yep and only speaking about smaller aircraft,the big guys fly em on

 

I think you may have just misinterpreted and thus misquoted me, or perhaps i explained it poorly.

 

Anyhow in the end i think we are saying the same thing.

 

 

[facthunter]

I wasn't particularly trying to attack you. It's just making sure people don't get into a position where the nosewheel falls hard onto the runway. Some planes where the mainwheels are located too far to the rear, this is hard to avoid, even impossible. It's also more likely when it's loaded nose heavy. Holding the nose high after landing decreases braking effect (if you have them) or need to use them hard. (short wet runway) Nev

 

 

[DrZoos]

All good Nev, I know you're not the attacking type.

 

 

[DWF]

......... Holding the nose high after landing decreases braking effect .............[/i]

I disagree with this quote.

 

I agree that the nose wheel should be held off for as long as possible, particularly for a short or soft field landing.

 

However this transfers weight from the nose wheel to the main wheels thus INCREASING braking effect (and adding 'weight' by putting a down force on the tailplane).

 

From 'Your Guide to Short Field Landings'

 

"Once you touchdown, you want to use maximum aerodynamic braking, as well as maximum wheel braking. By pulling back on the yoke on the ground, you increase your aerodynamic braking, and you keep more weight on your main gear. That in turn makes your brakes more effective, because you can apply more brake pressure without your wheels locking up. Keep pressure on the brakes until you know you're slow enough to make your taxi turnoff, then gently start to let up on the brakes."

 

 

[Robbo]

I remember using the wind sock as a guide during the first few hours of training, start flaring when you are halfway up the windsock.

 

But ultimately in the end just continue to fly towards the end of the runway and slowly hold back pressure as you feel the aircraft sink, basically arrest any sink and do not allow the aircraft to land. She will touch down as smooth as hot butter on bread.

 

 

[DrZoos]

DWF I think from first hand experience after actually trying this many times you are both right. Just after landing too much back pressure in my aircraft does induce a skid, slightly later in the roll when the aircraft has slowed , but the nose wheel is still capable of being held up a bit that back pressure really helps braking... I have a foot in each camp on that one...It might be different in other aircraft, but in my aircraft this is certainly the case.

 

It would also depend on your wing angle and how high you are holding that nose wheel, as if its very high, you're going to have less lift than if it's just below the stall angle. If its very low you're also going to have less lift than just below the stall angle.

 

 

[facthunter]

DWF... Your brakes to work need weight on them. If the wing is still providing lift (holding the nose HIGH, is exactly as how I expressed it) that's less grip for the wheels. It's also likely to react to gusts and get in the air again, If it's a low wing loaded design. Holding the nosewheel just off the ground is a different matter, as you haven't increased lift and all the weight is on the mains.. Nev

 

 

[cooperplace]

Im located at a relatively busy regional airport with a lot of small aircraft coming and going.It never ceases to amaze me how many pilots touch down with very excessive speed and a huge high speed ground roll. They come in round out and put it straight on the ground without even holding off. At a guess id say its more than 20-30% of all pilots i see. Some dont even bother protecting the nose wheel, almost flat landing the thing they are so hot. Many of these ar VH, but some are RAA.Some pilots prob need to be reminded the safest landing speed is the slowest possible landing speed and this involves a small bump , not a silk smooth hot landing. Landing hot might mean you can impress your passenger or yourself, with no bump, but it is a bad habit to get into, especially if it replaces your correct landing technique.

 

I was taught by 3 instructors and with BFR make that 4, RAA aircraft have pathetically weak nose wheels ...

 

Come in , keep asking yourself "Am I there yet" "Am I there yet" "Am I there yet" as soon as the runway dramatically widens begin round out and hold it in ground effect, initially around 3 feet letting it sink to t 1ft and continue to hold it just off the ground till it wont fly any longer, increasing back pressure till it plops onto the ground, making the ground roll far safer. Then continue to hold your nose wheel off till lack of elevator authority wont allow you to any longer. Then still hold full back pressure on elevator to reduce weight on nose wheel while taxiing with ailerons into the wind.

agree with all of this, especially speed on short final and over the fence. Nailing that speed makes it a lot easier.

 

 

[Parkway]

Having less weight on the nosewheel won't just affect the "survival" of the structure, Its got a lot to do with directional stability and control. If you land too fast , the weight will not be on the mainwheels and it will bite you one day. When tricycle gear first became common in the 60's there was a spate of loss of control on landing incidents caused by weight transfer to the nosewheel. Braking accentuates the effect. You have plenty of directional control with rudder alone after touchdown. We always tried to get the stall horn to beep just before the wheels touched. You can lapse into just flying the plane onto the runway at flying speed at locations where you always have plenty of runway. A BAD habit to get into. Lazy flying. Nev

Exactly the problem I had at first, letting that nose down at too high a speed and then getting a good case of the speed wobbles as I tried to slow down. I wondered why it only happened when I was solo and not with the instructor.. Until I realised because when with the instructor he would be saying "hold it off hold it off hold it off" On my own I was getting lazy.

 

 

[DrZoos]

Exactly the problem I had at first, letting that nose down at too high a speed and then getting a good case of the speed wobbles as I tried to slow down. I wondered why it only happened when I was solo and not with the instructor.. Until I realised because when with the instructor he would be saying "hold it off hold it off hold it off" On my own I was getting lazy.

They say around 8-10 hours after getting your Cert is the most dangerous, the good habits are not yet formed, the bad habits creep in, low experience and overconfidence starts....

 

 

[ben87r]

They say around 8-10 hours after getting your Cert is the most dangerous, the good habits are not yet formed, the bad habits creep in, low experience and overconfidence starts....

Then it's meant to be 100, 1000, 10000.

 

 

[Parkway]

Yeah the first 200 is statistically the danger zone... what's that book... the killing zone? Something like that