RAAus and ELAAA

[David Isaac]

My apologies to you Ian and Facthunter in this case as I,m sure I,am totally out of line ,my query was just ,as I was just asking a normal Question about comparable costs of RAA an ELaaa or GA for that matter igot the feeling from the answers that any sort of negativity to RAA was out of line and I was being made to look stupid to ask? and the plane I was talking about looked 100% a better option ifi was to go that way was all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sorry all.........[as I run under the house screaming yelp yelp yelp]

Hey Bull (Scott),

We all make mistakes. Nev is one Dude I have immense respect for, have known him a while now and been to his home a couple of times. He is quite a dude, but he doesn't need me to defend him.

 

I happen to agree with you that GA is beginning to look a lower cost option for flying the way it's going. Especially if you stick to basic simple GA models, Austers, Cubs, Citabrias, C150s, Tomahawks, etc. Especially the ones with bugga all ADs. They are simple and don't cost a lot to keep flying.

 

 

[facthunter]

Look I typed it up too fast, and meant to have a question mark in there. I actually wanted to query the situation and it came out as though I was sure of it. The spin thing with the plane has been analysed and appears to be due to a few things. It uses a GAW 1 wing section Not the earlier more common types and the T tail is not in the slipstream of the prop so it's not as activated by having power on as more normal configurations. Study it all and make your decision based on as much facts as you can get. I wouldn't consider it a dangerous plane as long as you are trained for it. ALL pilots did spin training, once. They require quite a bit of height to get out of it even if you do it correctly.

 

Don't forget a newly painted plane may cover a lot of faults and sometimes the paint stripper used doesn't help it's longevity, afterwards. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Back to the thread... what is going on with ELAAA? It is my impression that they are being stonewalled by CASA, but I don't know why or even if this is the case.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Back to the thread... what is going on with ELAAA? It is my impression that they are being stonewalled by CASA, but I don't know why or even if this is the case.

You are on to it Bruce..KP.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

It appears as though ELAAA is lost in the bureaucratic maze that would require CASA to at the very least issue a new CAO to cover its operations, the CASR's to be amended and/or Part 149 to be adopted.

 

At the moment CASR 200.014(from memory) requires that the CASR's do not apply if aircraft are operated in accordance with CAO 95.55. CAO 95.55 only recognises RAAus. Further the CASR 200.25 says that paragraph 20AB(1)(a) of the Act, a person is taken to hold a civil aviation authorisation that is in force and authorises the person to perform a duty that is essential to the operation of an unregistered Australian aircraft during flight time if:

 

(a) the person holds a pilot certificate granted by a sport aviation body that administers aviation activities in the aircraft; and

 

(b) the person operates the aircraft in accordance with the sport aviation body's operations manual.

 

Sports aviation bodies are defined by the CASR do not include ELAAA (defines the existing "peak bodies").

 

ELAAA predicament could easily be resolved if there was a will to do it within CASA but it seems as though everybody is comfortable with the status quo.

 

 

[turboplanner]

It might help if they chose either GA or RA to operate in, and preferably RA so it is feasible.

 

 

[Yenn]

I was under the impression that ELAAA had chosen RA, by which I mean recreational aviation, which does not mean RAAus,

 

ELAAA are trying to set up to do what RAAus does now, but it looks as if CASA is just playing them along.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I gather ELAAA have over reached themselves trying for non-commercial helicopters and the sub 1,500kg fixed wing GA sector. It is a pity, as there are plenty of single engine recreational GA planes whose owners would like to trade off things like NVR, free rego etc, for owner maintenance, even if it is at an annual cost. Personally I would have started with ultralights, got established within what is accepted and then tried for greater weight and other types and engaged some people who know how to word manuals and administrative instruments. Still hoping they get up for the lower end of GA's sake.

 

 

[robinsm]

ELAAA, I thought, was meant to be the answer to those wanting a better deal. They seem to be going nowhere at present. I have heard nothing from them even though I registered my interest many months ago. If they were serious, I think they would at least have kept those trying to fly their flag up to date. I thought they were a real non bulldust alternative to RAA etc but it appears I was being hopeful.

 

 

[rick-p]

Hi Jim McDowall in a nut shell you are spot on. Your observations are on point and precise. You summed it up to a T.

 

 

[rick-p]

ELAAA, I thought, was meant to be the answer to those wanting a better deal. They seem to be going nowhere at present. I have heard nothing from them even though I registered my interest many months ago. If they were serious, I think they would at least have kept those trying to fly their flag up to date. I thought they were a real non bulldust alternative to RAA etc but it appears I was being hopeful.

It is still in their kicking but Jim McDowall has summed it up correctly, for the moment at least.

[rick-p]

I gather ELAAA have over reached themselves trying for non-commercial helicopters and the sub 1,500kg fixed wing GA sector. It is a pity, as there are plenty of single engine recreational GA planes whose owners would like to trade off things like NVR, free rego etc, for owner maintenance, even if it is at an annual cost. Personally I would have started with ultralights, got established within what is accepted and then tried for greater weight and other types and engaged some people who know how to word manuals and administrative instruments. Still hoping they get up for the lower end of GA's sake.

One of the problems, as I understand it, is that there has been numerous problems with the help it has been receiving and a lot of red herrings being thrown it's way due to other organization/s not wanting ELAAA to exist.

[Happyflyer]

Not sure who wrote the ELAAA submission, but if Keith Page had much input, perhaps CASA are still trying to figure out what he said. I have absolutely no idea what he says in most of his posts here.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

That’s a shame, I was looking forward to a fresh outlook on recreational aviation.

 

 

[turboplanner]

One of the problems, as I understand it, is that there has been numerous problems with the help it has been receiving and a lot of red herrings being thrown it's way due to other organization/s not wanting ELAAA to exist.

I doubt that; competition is something you need to beat.

[rick-p]

Unfortunately your comment does not change the facts, competition is not based on deceit and deception. Any retailer who has a decent product does not need to white ant the competition. There has always been a need for competition because competition breeds excellence but this has nothing to do with competition here. It is just a case of someone is going to lose it's draconian control over the those who needs it services. And by the way it is the other organization that is going for 1500kg not ELAAA, it is as plain as the nose on your face that it is pushing towards GA as it will then be in a position to claim much higher fees if it is afforded that MTO and able to bring RPL like operations under their umbrella. ELAAA as I understand it was all for 95.10 and light sport aviation. Yes initially they sort 760kg MTW and their was a very sensible reason for this but this is not being pushed at the moment. The helicopter issue is a totally different kettle of fish and this area still remains a mystery to the Authority. I read with interest from time to time some of the uneducated and ill-informed comments in these forums and it appears to me that certain people from time to are trying to claim the sharpest knife in the draw status. As I said in previous comment herein Jim McDowall has posted probably the most accurate scenario of what is the true position of ELAAA. Having said that it still appears to be that ELAAA is not giving up and only has become stronger for the hurdles that have been put in front of it. As for keeping interested parties informed this has been a little difficult for some time now as it seems that their web site was under constant attack by hackers so the web site is being reconstructed with hi tech protection put in place. This is a costly process and without any outside financial assistance apart from those involved and those 100 or so interested persons who decided to throw their hat in the ring by purchasing in advance a prescription and attending maintenance courses ELAAA wouldn't have got as far as it has to date and it is not giving up by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

[SDQDI]

So are you saying it is RAA's fault that CASA is holding back? Maybe it was their fault that that Chinese satellite came down too? They probably introduced Barnaby to his mistress and no doubt they are sitting on the coordinates of MH370..........

 

Maybe I just read too much into it. I haven't ever been good at cryptic clues, but it does seem to me that RAA cops a lot of blame for a lot of stuff.

 

And for the record I am in no way affiliated with RAA or the leaders thereof other than being a paid up member so I can fly.

 

 

[rick-p]

So are you saying it is RAA's fault that CASA is holding back? Maybe it was their fault that that Chinese satellite came down too? They probably introduced Barnaby to his mistress and no doubt they are sitting on the coordinates of MH370..........Maybe I just read too much into it. I haven't ever been good at cryptic clues, but it does seem to me that RAA cops a lot of blame for a lot of stuff.

And for the record I am in no way affiliated with RAA or the leaders thereof other than being a paid up member so I can fly.

Maybe you need English comprehension lessons, did I mention CASA or RAA as such and I'm in no way affiliated with either, either.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Unfortunately your comment does not change the facts, competition is not based on deceit and deception. Any retailer who has a decent product does not need to white ant the competition. There has always been a need for competition because competition breeds excellence but this has nothing to do with competition here. It is just a case of someone is going to lose it's draconian control over the those who needs it services. And by the way it is the other organization that is going for 1500kg not ELAAA, it is as plain as the nose on your face that it is pushing towards GA as it will then be in a position to claim much higher fees if it is afforded that MTO and able to bring RPL like operations under their umbrella. ELAAA as I understand it was all for 95.10 and light sport aviation. Yes initially they sort 760kg MTW and their was a very sensible reason for this but this is not being pushed at the moment. The helicopter issue is a totally different kettle of fish and this area still remains a mystery to the Authority. I read with interest from time to time some of the uneducated and ill-informed comments in these forums and it appears to me that certain people from time to are trying to claim the sharpest knife in the draw status. As I said in previous comment herein Jim McDowall has posted probably the most accurate scenario of what is the true position of ELAAA. Having said that it still appears to be that ELAAA is not giving up and only has become stronger for the hurdles that have been put in front of it. As for keeping interested parties informed this has been a little difficult for some time now as it seems that their web site was under constant attack by hackers so the web site is being reconstructed with hi tech protection put in place. This is a costly process and without any outside financial assistance apart from those involved and those 100 or so interested persons who decided to throw their hat in the ring by purchasing in advance a prescription and attending maintenance courses ELAAA wouldn't have got as far as it has to date and it is not giving up by any stretch of the imagination.

One of the problems, as I understand it, is that there has been numerous problems with the help it has been receiving and a lot of red herrings being thrown it's way due to other organization/s not wanting ELAAA to exist.

Numerous problems with the help - validRed Herrings thrown by others - happens all the time in business, that's what competitors do.

 

Competitor is going for 1500 - let them make the mistake.

 

Leaving - how much of your problem is that you're trying to straddle two arms of aviation?

 

Why not re-plan for Recreational Aviation only; prove your self administration skills over a couple of years and then look at a slice of GA with proof of self administration under your belt?

 

If I was sitting in CASA now, I would be looking at the ELAAA proposal and scratching my head trying to figure out how a completely unknown organisation would be safe to take over helicopters and GA operations. If someone came to me and said "How about me make it simple and just include RA"? I'd be inclined to say "Yes, that's in line with what we intended for Self Administering Organisations. (Disclaimer; you know I'm not sitting in CASA, nor have any idea of what their thought processes are.)

 

 

[SDQDI]

Maybe you need English comprehension lessons, did I mention CASA or RAA as such and I'm in no way affiliated with either, either.

I never did enjoy English! Always enjoyed reading but it the rest of it. But having said that it seems you were very much hinting at someone maliciously hindering ELAAA you said

 

One of the problems, as I understand it, is that there has been numerous problems with the help it has been receiving and a lot of red herrings being thrown it's way due to other organization/s not wanting ELAAA to exist.

So what organisation/s are you talking about?You later told Turbs something along the lines of it being fact.

 

 

[Admin]

WARNING!!!

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

Perhaps a review of the Sport and Recreation SCC minutes is enlightening as to the attitude of the existing bodies but Johnathon Alecks diatribe issued as Appendix C in NPRM1502ss concerning Part 149 indicates the CASA view on multiple organisations administering the same industry sectors:-

 

"14. That said, having regard to the nature and extent of the kinds of sport and

 

recreational aviation activities currently administered by existing bodies, and

 

cognisant of the potential safety risks attendant on the approval of more than one

 

RAAO to administer essentially the same activities,

 

it is not unreasonable to expect

 

that, as a matter of safety and consistent with applicable anti-competition laws, CASA

 

might not properly approve more than one applicant in respect of a particular sphere

 

of activity.

 

15. At this point, it would still be premature to speculate about whether, and if so under

 

what circumstances, there might be more than one RAAO approved to administer the

 

same activity (in at least one case, there already is), and

 

it would be unwise to

 

suggest or imply that there will only ever be a single RAAO approved to administer a

 

particular activity

 

. As a practical matter, however, and mindful of CASA's overarching

 

commitment to safety, and our expectations of others in that connection, it is

 

reasonable to say that one of the most effective bulwarks against competition is to

 

strive to offer the very best product and services, on reasonable terms and at

 

affordable prices."

 

The part I have colored red is only to show the duplicitous nature of thier position, because they (CASA) cannot be seen to formally exclude the concept of multiple organisations administering the same activity.

 

AS I have pointed out in another thread there are several organisations administering RAAus type activities in NZ without any demonstrable administrative issues or cost impacts.

 

I would like to think that ELAAA has a chance but the will to change must be evident within CASA for it to occur. One of the reasons we have been preparing for the introduction of Part 149 for at least two decades is that everybody, (the bodies and CASA), are quite comfortable with the status quo.

 

 

[Admin]

But there currently ARE 2 bodies administering the same type i.e. Trikes are administered by both RAAus and HGFA so the precedence already exists.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

But there currently ARE 2 bodies administering the same type i.e. Trikes are administered by both RAAus and HGFA so the precedence already exists.

Excellent point

[turboplanner]

But there currently ARE 2 bodies administering the same type i.e. Trikes are administered by both RAAus and HGFA so the precedence already exists.

That's what Jonathon said, plus the point in red.