RAAus and ELAAA

[scre80]

Log in - RAA - IntranetFive scholarship recipients were in attendance at the ceremony and were asked to speak to the room. RAAus president, Michael Monck also thanked the program's sponsors, particularly AirServices Australia who donate $25,000 each year.

 

Other sponsors this year included Dick Smith Foods, OzRunways, Aviation Advertiser, Brisbane Airport, Sport Pilot Magazine/ Stampils Publishing, Cre8ive, Hall and Co. and Michael Coates.

My understanding too was it was all donations and not from the membership or other fees. I am a recipient of the scholarship and very grateful. Thanks to all who donated. My last membership renewal I made sure I put back in what I could. Hopefully if others can afford to, it can go to worthy recipients.

[nomadpete]

So, you are saying that philanthropy ( funding learners) is not the cause of our price increases.

 

In our new brave new world, the user pays.

 

We already knew that.

 

For all those crying about the good old days, you can still fly your home built single seat weedhopper. You still have that right. But the reality is that the vast majority wish to fly relatively sophisticated plastic fantastic fast flying machines. The new world is set up to accommodate the risks and liabilities associated with that 'turn key' expectation.

 

When, or if, the majority of flyers start building their own 'affordable, safe' flying machines (this is what AUF was), no doubt the RAA (or whoever else) will morph to support that.

 

So far, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

By definition, affordable is not going to be fast, nor turn key product.

 

When the baby boomer bubble bursts, we might see a return to affordable bare bones flying. Then the regulators will have to adjust. And that includes RAA and any 'competitor'

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, I don't grudge what goes to scholarship winners because we do get the odd ones like scre80 who were well worth the money spent. There are a couple more in this category, amounting to about 1 % of scholarships given out.

 

There are many scholarship winners who find the financial burden too much after the scholarship ends, so we only get to keep a few. I don't blame them, their employment security etc may well make it foolish for them to continue flying.

 

The most expensive thing for the RAAus is surely keeping CASA satisfied. This involves many things, from writing manuals to keeping records to policing clubs.

 

AND being democratic is obviously expensive. The ELAAA (if it ever gets going) will demonstrate how much democracy costs.

 

But the main cost is CASA. I wish we could get rid of CASA for small planes then we could expect some real savings.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Good luck Scre80

 

Keep up the passion.

 

Nothing compares to flying.

 

 

[rick-p]

It appears to me that increasingly RAA management have a business model that includes bleeding as much money out of its members as they think they can get away with - I wonder if this will ever plateau. On another note they have announced another survey which I applaud, but curiously I don’t remember there being published a complete account of the results of the previous survey. ( correct me if I’m wrong as I don’t subscribe to Sport Pilot however I do talk to people that do). Perhaps they didn’t get the results they were looking for to support the weight increase etc and so are going to roll the dice again for a more agreeable result.

Hey Bill ELAAA ran a survey with a number of flying schools in Australia and the daggers were drawn, to say the least, with some very obnoxious replies coming back to it. The survey was basically addressing safety issues but there appear to be a lot of disinterest which is probably due to the lack of a true safety culture in recreational aviation brought on by it's, at present, governing body. They don't look after members interest in fact they prefer to protect themselves that is put their existence first before the members. I could name 4 names that this has happened to, 3 in the past and one person at this time but I can't due to client privilege disclose who they are without their permission. They, the organizational hierarchy, don't understand the principles of Natural Justice and due process and think themselves a law under their own right. All I can say if the present person who is under the gun with them suffers any financial loss due their unprecedented action in the matter then there will be a suit. Also it may be the case their pre-empting a decision off their own bat before a Coronial Inquest has been held may just be relayed to the Coroner for his consideration.

 

 

[rick-p]

Our club CDFG Inc thanks to the members generosity and the now defunct Gladstone Club, who gave us their left over funds when they deregistered, have been able to provide a scholarship to one very lucky girl applicant to commence her flying career so it's not just the big fella's that do these things it's also the little fish because we believe that it is so very important to keep aviation alive for our future generations.

 

 

[rick-p]

I do know a few guys called Mark Rick,. . .any idea about what part of the country he flies from ? after all, we are only about half the size of Victoria here !. . .we get hundreds of flying visits from people all over the country, as we're centrally located and handy for a rest stop. . .Most signatures in the visitors log are impossible to read ! In fact, so much so that the Manager has put up a notice in the control office to this effect. We need clearer details of aircraft type, Origin, Destination, Commander and, where applicable, Passenger names, Clearly Written in the event of an emergency / missing aircraft etc.

Phil I will have a chat to Mark and ask him where he was flying there. He is now in the Philippines. He flew a flex wing. Thanks for your reply much appreciated.

 

 

[rick-p]

On another point, I know that if ELAAA can resolve its problems in due course with it's web site there will be most definitely a greater dissemination of information as to its progress and other matters such as certain training programs including maintenance course. I just had my Level 1 taken from me and I'm not happy because RAA had absolutely no right to do that. All existing Level 1 endorsements should have been grandfather. I can say that the ELAAA course is excellent and well received by those who have done it. In fact CASA in writing has endorsed it as a proactive approach to safety because it has a practical component to it which is very relevant to the Level 1 maintainer's type of maintenance carried out on their aircraft.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Phil I will have a chat to Mark and ask him where he was flying there. He is now in the Philippines. He flew a flex wing. Thanks for your reply much appreciated.

I checked the records,. . .we have 2 blokes named Mark based at the site,. . but none with your mate's surname. . .sorry. . . .

 

 

[rick-p]

I checked the records,. . .we have 2 blokes named Mark based at the site,. . but none with your mate's surname. . .sorry. . . .

Thanks for that much appreciated.Rick

 

 

[Keith Page]

Not sure who wrote the ELAAA submission' date=' but if Keith Page had much input, perhaps CASA are still trying to figure out what he said. I have absolutely no idea what he says in most of his posts here. [img']https://www.recreationalflying.com/xf_step/upload/uploads/emoticons/028_whisper.gif.86563ef66fe06fd71ffb95dba2588ea4.gif[/img]

Hello Happyflyer I am back from doing some work.I need to explain myself here and by the looks of things I have been misunderstood.

 

The number of times people ask me to spell the situation out word for word I must hasten to add, it will not be prudent of me to answer in a manner as such, word for word. However I do present very good tracks to follow to gather this information for ones self. i.e. Ones owns research and interpretation.

 

KP

 

 

[Keith Page]

It appears to me that increasingly RAA management have a business model that includes bleeding as much money out of its members as they think they can get away with - I wonder if this will ever plateau. On another note they have announced another survey which I applaud, but curiously I don’t remember there being published a complete account of the results of the previous survey. ( correct me if I’m wrong as I don’t subscribe to Sport Pilot however I do talk to people that do). Perhaps they didn’t get the results they were looking for to support the weight increase etc and so are going to roll the dice again for a more agreeable result.

That is about correct. Charge the maximum which industry will tolerate and there is the price.KP.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Hello Happyflyer I am back from doing some work.I need to explain myself here and by the looks of things I have been misunderstood.The number of times people ask me to spell the situation out word for word I must hasten to add, it will not be prudent of me to answer in a manner as such, word for word. However I do present very good tracks to follow to gather this information for ones self. i.e. Ones owns research and interpretation.

 

KP

I hope that isn't ELAAA's information policy in the future Keith!Saying you need to explain yourself and then doing that by saying work it out yourselves seems to be as much double talk as pollies feed us.

 

I can understand there are times there will be no new info and I can understand at times things like websites won't work or get hacked but a simple statement every now and then would go a long way to explain matters.

 

I have said before I am only in RAA to fly BUT I will never look at an alternative that has as much double talk as you put out. Keep it plain, keep it simple and you become a viable option.

 

 

[Jaba-who]

Hey Bill ELAAA ran a survey with a number of flying schools in Australia and the daggers were drawn, to say the least, with some very obnoxious replies coming back to it. The survey was basically addressing safety issues but there appear to be a lot of disinterest which is probably due to the lack of a true safety culture in recreational aviation brought on by it's, at present, governing body. They don't look after members interest in fact they prefer to protect themselves that is put their existence first before the members. I could name 4 names that this has happened to, 3 in the past and one person at this time but I can't due to client privilege disclose who they are without their permission. They, the organizational hierarchy, don't understand the principles of Natural Justice and due process and think themselves a law under their own right. All I can say if the present person who is under the gun with them suffers any financial loss due their unprecedented action in the matter then there will be a suit. Also it may be the case their pre-empting a decision off their own bat before a Coronial Inquest has been held may just be relayed to the Coroner for his consideration.

I have no knowledge of, or position on, the contest between ELAAA and RAAus. But something that everyone needs to understand is that anyone whose major thrust is the stance that “safety” is everything (or “in the interests of safety” or whatever other safety related terminologies get strung together), will not and won’t any more in the future be trusted.We all know our hobby has risks and we all know of people who have demised because the risks caught up with them.

 

But we undertake flying accepting the risks.

 

But historically people who have decided they know how to lower those risks (in those who have taken up the hobby actually accepting the risks as they are) have always always always become controllers and limiters of those who have openly expressed the desire not to be controlled by those who feel they know better.

 

I have seen in many fields, aviation, medical and ground transport, the use of the word “safety” is a mechanism for closing down discussion. If you want to accept risks as they are, don’t want to accept restrictions, in the name of safety or a culture of safety to fix an acceptable level of risk you are cast in the same pit as climate change deniers and anti-gay rights believers.

 

I’m not surprised you got a less than stellar response from training establishments if your approaches contained anything that might suggest that anything less than your idea on an approach to safety was tantamount to negligence in their part. I’ve been in a training establishment where similar sorts of suggestions had been made from an ex-casa official who after leaving casa felt he could join the club and save an actually impeccable record (nil events in over 20 years) from itself by internally imposing a culture of safety that included costs that would bankrupt the club. To fix a problem which didn’t exist.

 

While the intentions may be good, the reality is that we have been gradually restricted to the point of disappearing in the name of safety and no one will be anything but wary of it. Everyone has to accept that there is a balance between the two and at some point there has to be a stop to allowing one side overbalance the other.

 

 

[Keith Page]

I hope that isn't ELAAA's information policy in the future Keith!Saying you need to explain yourself and then doing that by saying work it out yourselves seems to be as much double talk as pollies feed us.

I can understand there are times there will be no new info and I can understand at times things like websites won't work or get hacked but a simple statement every now and then would go a long way to explain matters.

 

I have said before I am only in RAA to fly BUT I will never look at an alternative that has as much double talk as you put out. Keep it plain, keep it simple and you become a viable option.

That is far removed from what I am saying.Like now I will explain this word for word.

 

When I find some contentious issues and or subjects, I will not explain the case word for word., I will show you the way to get to the information and you can use your own words for the interpretation. That removes me from the old issue of "He said".

 

As for ELAAA when it is operational I will explain the requested information word for word.

 

KP

 

 

[frank marriott]

I have seen in many fields, aviation, medical and ground transport, the use of the word “safety” is a mechanism for closing down discussion.

Reminds me of a debated point in ONE of the changes to the Tech Manual (whilst I was on the board) when I pointed out it was not a requirement of the ANOs and got the reply that “I thing it is a good idea” from the “current” president - implemented without change - I realised I was wasting my time, and certainly would never waist my time again trying to argue logic with an autocratic style management system. (Naturally I kept copies of the internal correspondence for my record).

 

 

[rick-p]

I have no knowledge of, or position on, the contest between ELAAA and RAAus. But something that everyone needs to understand is that anyone whose major thrust is the stance that “safety” is everything (or “in the interests of safety” or whatever other safety related terminologies get strung together), will not and won’t any more in the future be trusted.We all know our hobby has risks and we all know of people who have demised because the risks caught up with them.But we undertake flying accepting the risks.

 

But historically people who have decided they know how to lower those risks (in those who have taken up the hobby actually accepting the risks as they are) have always always always become controllers and limiters of those who have openly expressed the desire not to be controlled by those who feel they know better.

 

I have seen in many fields, aviation, medical and ground transport, the use of the word “safety” is a mechanism for closing down discussion. If you want to accept risks as they are, don’t want to accept restrictions, in the name of safety or a culture of safety to fix an acceptable level of risk you are cast in the same pit as climate change deniers and anti-gay rights believers.

 

I’m not surprised you got a less than stellar response from training establishments if your approaches contained anything that might suggest that anything less than your idea on an approach to safety was tantamount to negligence in their part. I’ve been in a training establishment where similar sorts of suggestions had been made from an ex-casa official who after leaving casa felt he could join the club and save an actually impeccable record (nil events in over 20 years) from itself by internally imposing a culture of safety that included costs that would bankrupt the club. To fix a problem which didn’t exist.

 

While the intentions may be good, the reality is that we have been gradually restricted to the point of disappearing in the name of safety and no one will be anything but wary of it. Everyone has to accept that there is a balance between the two and at some point there has to be a stop to allowing one side overbalance the other.

I'm not sure where you are coming from with your post its just a tad confusing jumping from one position to another. When I referred to safety culture I was refering to a system of responsible reporting to a person's governing body when they have incident either pilot generated or aircraft failure of some discription. A reporting system without fear of being beaten up for being honest. The only time s punishment or penalty is when there has been a blatant disregard and knowing non compliance with the rules. The problem with the presrnt system people ate too frightened to report incidents for fear of receiving a rap over the knucles. No one person, group or organization knows everything about this subject and the only way to prevent incidents is to better armed with the right information. This information can only be usefull of it contains the whole truth and nothing but the truth not opinions from people who think they know it all because no one done. It's no different than these university graduates that go and work with the department of child safety and claim that they have learnt it all but in all reality a decent mom with 3 young children has forgotten more they will ever know if the go through life with that initial attitude they come out of uni with. Just my two bob's worth.

 

 

[Mick]

Our club CDFG Inc thanks to the members generosity and the now defunct Gladstone Club, who gave us their left over funds when they deregistered, have been able to provide a scholarship to one very lucky girl applicant to commence her flying career so it's not just the big fella's that do these things it's also the little fish because we believe that it is so very important to keep aviation alive for our future generations.

The money for the scholarship you refer to, as you mention, was raised by the Callide Dawson Flying Group and the Galdstone Aero Club.

It should be made clear to all that this scholarship has absolutely nothing to do with the ELAAA.

 

 

[jetjr]

Seems ELAA and supporters believe they can exist and move forward with a different view of safety to that of CASA

 

Right or wrong its the environment we exist under. At this point debating how wrong or misguided the policy and views are is wasting effort

 

Judging RAA and its approach to lofe is also a waste of time bcause at this point its all we have

 

CASA oversee everything and we exist and fly at their convienience.

 

 

[rick-p]

I also said our club of which I am a member and am past Vice President and Vice President so I don't know where it comes from that ELAAA was supposed to be involved.

 

 

[rick-p]

Seems ELAA and supporters believe they can exist and move forward with a different view of safety to that of CASARight or wrong its the environment we exist under. At this point debating how wrong or misguided the policy and views are is wasting effortJudging RAA and its approach to lofe is also a waste of time bcause at this point its all we have

 

CASA oversee everything and we exist and fly at their convienience.

Im fully convinced that with some of you guys its either the devil you do or the devil you don't. First we have people who use these forums as a place to have a whinge because they want to mind everyone elses business and no one elses opinion is worth a pinch of salt. First, they complain that they are not being kept informed of a particular situation and when they are advised of the true and factual situation ATM all the BS starts up. People are misquoted, people are insulted and peoples integrity is questioned. What in name all things is a different view on safety? That doesn't even make sense. ELAAA has one goal and that is to give those who would like it, an alternative with a certainity in its direction.

 

 

[Admin]

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