Change is in the air

[Yenn]

I was at Thangool fly in this weekend and it was just about the initial announcment of a new body to govern sport flying. You may have seen or heard of ELAAA, but we got the low down at Thangool. I don't know all the finer details but it appears that the new body will look after ultralight 3 axis and rotary wing aircraft. Registration will be VH-XXX. Fees will be less than RAAus. They will have flight training organisations, C of As will be two yearly, rather than our present annual inspections. Fees will be two yearly also. They propose to honour RAAus pilot certificates, but when I asked if ELAAA pilots would be able to fly RAAus reg. planes, they couldn't answer, it will I suppose be up to RAAus.

 

ELAAA have a facebook page I believe, but have never used facebook. You can contact them [email protected].

 

The way I see it, there are a lot of people unhappy with RAAus, who may want to change over. This may force RAAus to perform better, or it may cause them to become antagonistic to the new body and not co operate in any way.

 

Two of the directors are regular posters on this forum. One is an ex RAAus board member who I have known for years and I have a very high opinion of him. the other two, I have talked to and they appear to only be looking after the best interests of. sport pilots.

 

I am seriously thinking of joining them for registering my Corby Starlet. I had previously thought of de registeing it and re registering GA. That could be the cheaper option in tjhe long run, but at 80 I don't think I have a long run left in me.

 

Have a look at their facebook page, or email them or even ask me for any thing I may be able to help with. Whatever happens change is in the air.

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I was at Thangool fly in this weekend and it was just about the initial announcment of a new body to govern sport flying. You may have seen or heard of ELAAA, but we got the low down at Thangool. I don't know all the finer details but it appears that the new body will look after ultralight 3 axis and rotary wing aircraft. Registration will be VH-XXX. Fees will be less than RAAus. They will have flight training organisations, C of As will be two yearly, rather than our present annual inspections. Fees will be two yearly also. They propose to honour RAAus pilot certificates, but when I asked if ELAAA pilots would be able to fly RAAus reg. planes, they couldn't answer, it will I suppose be up to RAAus.ELAAA have a facebook page I believe, but have never used facebook. You can contact them [email protected].

The way I see it, there are a lot of people unhappy with RAAus, who may want to change over. This may force RAAus to perform better, or it may cause them to become antagonistic to the new body and not co operate in any way.

 

Two of the directors are regular posters on this forum. One is an ex RAAus board member who I have known for years and I have a very high opinion of him. the other two, I have talked to and they appear to only be looking after the best interests of. sport pilots.

 

I am seriously thinking of joining them for registering my Corby Starlet. I had previously thought of de registeing it and re registering GA. That could be the cheaper option in tjhe long run, but at 80 I don't think I have a long run left in me.

 

Have a look at their facebook page, or email them or even ask me for any thing I may be able to help with. Whatever happens change is in the air.

Is that their wish list or have they received approval from CASA?

 

 

[GAFA]

Lots of photos on their Facebook page, but no information.

 

 

[Yenn]

All their info is with CASA and they hope for approval late november, but it could be in the new year.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

From their facebook page:

 

 

 

the following information is for public disemination now. ELAAA Pty Ltd Rick PARKS CEO, Myles BRIETKREUTZ Managing Director, Keith PAGE Managing Director and Kevin PATTERSON Managing Director.

 

 

More info promised to come today.... ELAAA | Facebook

 

ELAAA is a Pty Ltd company - a private company with less than 50 shareholders (owners). The people who join will be "clients" not "members" as we currently think of ourselves with RAA. The decisions and voting will be restricted to those few owners. Might suit people like my darling who wishes "they would just get on with it so I can fly" and does not want to be involved with voting. politics, commenting on policy, documents, finances etc.

 

 

[ben87r]

I like the idea of being able to fly with them with a RPL or higher, would definitely have more interest from me.

 

 

[ave8rr]

This is similar to how NZ run things. All aircraft are on the National register (ZK-XXX) Aircraft are registered class one ultralight if single seat, class two if dual seat and also LSA all with MTOW of 600kg or as appropriate. There are two groups that train ultralight pilots to Pilot Certificate level (SAC and MAANZ). PPL holders and higher can fly ultralights if so endorsed. There is NO requirement to have to be a member of one or other group except during the training period to Certificate issue.

 

There is an annual "Airways" fee of around $110.00 for all aircraft on the NZ Register. Inspections are done annually and carried out by a suitably authorised person from one of the two groups for minimal or no cost. Clubs can buy a kit which can be assembled and then used for flight training etc. No requirement to have to be factory built.

 

 

[philipnz]

Thats correct ave8rr. (except the group is RAANZ not MAANZ) I did my training under SAC but have recently joined RAANZ as my local instructors work under that group for my BFR's. I'm keeping my membership with both.

 

My local aero club trains microlight permits in a RV12 that the local school built from a kit under the supervision of some keen members.

 

Mercury Bay Aero Club | Whitianga Airfield, New Zealand

 

 

[Bernie Knight]

Sounds interesting. Certainly an option

 

 

[flying dog]

Just a couple of things:

 

If rego become/s: VH-XXX, there is going to be a problem.

 

Now, RAA are 19- 24- 55- and something else. Also they are numbers, not letters.

 

Not that it will be a blanket change, but this will put more planes in the VH- range.

 

THEY ARE GOING TO RUN OUT QUICKER!

 

Not that that is a problem for the owners, but systemically there will be a problem.

 

And guess who pay for fixing these kind of problems ONCE they have happened? The users!

 

From their facebook page: ELAAA is a Pty Ltd company - a private company with less than 50 shareholders (owners). The people who join will be "clients" not "members" as we currently think of ourselves with RAA. The decisions and voting will be restricted to those few owners. Might suit people like my darling who wishes "they would just get on with it so I can fly" and does not want to be involved with voting. politics, commenting on policy, documents, finances etc.

Oh, a PS at the start:

 

(Yeah, ok I am not one of these bookface people, (I kinda have a life) and though it may be "the way" think about this: If it is a company, they would have a website set up as well - if not first. Why haven't they got a WEB PAGE? Forget the excuses: We haven't got around to it, etc. If they are serious, all that would have been done as a matter of fact and be done by this stage. So if they can't get that sequence right, what else aren't they getting right?)

 

That is a whole can of worms.

 

WHO are these people? REALLY??!!

 

Although "our" system has "problems" (voting, politics, etc) NO SYSTEM IS PERFECT, and excluding these from the new system may look good, but it WILL have problems.

 

"We" vote on things which are (though sometimes not easily seen) to do with us! The rules which control where were we fly, the weight, altitude and all that kind of stuff.

 

Those things are part and parcel of the "game of flying". Similar to the rego for your car.

 

So these 50 people CONTROL the system. You are a CLIENT - as stated - so you have less say.

 

Here is an analogy and I hope it is right - or I will look a bit silly. (I can live with that I guess. Done it for all my life so far.)

 

1 - You buy a car outright. It is YOURS! You have to pay rego, insurance, etc. But you can drive it on what ever road you want and any problems are YOURS.

 

2 - You go into a syndicate where a few of your "mates" also chip in for the car. All in all, it is "yours" as in, you know the people who own it. You all chip in for communal rego, and other costs, and pay for petrol as needed.

 

This is nice in the beginning, but as time goes on problems appear.

 

"You are driving the car more than the rest" "The dent wasn't there when I left the car" "Who drove the car and didn't check the oil first?" "You are driving the car a lot less than expected" and so on.

 

But you still KNOW (well, that is now up for debate) the people.

 

Money divides the group and friendships are lost. It does happen.

 

3 - You rent a car from a company, as needed. It only costs you to drive it per kilometre. But it COSTS more / KM than if you bought it in example 1.

 

The cost can change at the company's will (remember what happened with the GREEN SLIPS for cars). You have no say. When you take it back, THEY dictate the cost you pay. Fighting it is an expensive proposition. If you don't like it, go to "another" rent-a-car company and have the EXACT SAME THING done to you, just differently. I am sure you get the meaning.

 

As CLIENTS your rights are restricted and though this will be glossed over when you "sign here" you REALLY should get a microscope (forget the magnifying glass) and go over it quite a few times.

 

Sure it may be better, but it also may be worse. I am not trying to be an antagonist, but before things change: "We" need to really know the BIG PICTURE of what is going on.

 

Is this simply a grab by people for money? They set up a Pty Ltd and they are NOT linked to the financial happenings. (Ltd kinda gives it away.)

 

They get members, site new (different?) rules and things "go south". WHO is liable?

 

I'm not saying the answers are any easier now with what we have. But further complicating it does NOT make it easier.

 

Sure it would be nice if it makes it SIMPLER, but honestly? People higher up the food chain won't let that happen.

 

Please be careful in your choices. This is simply an external view, and though some may see it as biased, believe me: It isn't. It is calling it as I see it.

 

Sure it may be a poor reflection on me as a person, but standing in judgement of me for that is more a poor reflection of yourself than of me. NO ONE is perfect.

 

I wish you all well in the outcome.

 

 

[P4D]

"FlyingVizsla said: ↑

 

From their facebook page:

 

ELAAA is a Pty Ltd company - a private company with less than 50 shareholders (owners). The people who join will be "clients" not "members" as we currently think of ourselves with RAA. The few owners. Might suit people like my darling who wishes "they would just get on with it so I can fly" and does not want to be involved with voting. politics, commenting on policy, documents, finances etc."

 

 

 

Flying Dog says

 

Is this simply a grab by people for money? They set up a Pty Ltd and they are NOT linked to the financial happenings. (Ltd kinda gives it away.)

 

They get members, site new (different?) rules and things "go south". WHO is liable?

 

You are already being administered in RAA by a Limited Liability Company Company.

 

Decisions and voting is already restricted to office holders.

 

You can only vote them in or out of office just like the Australian Parliamentary System.

 

You cannot not be involved with voting on policy. politics, documents, finances etc.

 

They will only report to you not involve you in operational matters or strategic planning that affects every member.

 

EXTRACT :-

 

Entity name: RECREATIONAL AVIATION AUSTRALIA LIMITED

 

ABN status: Active from 15 Dec 1999

 

Entity type: Other Incorporated Entity

 

Goods & Services Tax (GST): Registered from 01 Jul 2000

 

Main business location:

 

ACT 2609

 

 

[flying dog]

Weird, I got 2 notifications of replies and neither was for the only one I see as a reply.

 

Anyway, in "reply" to the reply:

 

Here is an analogy and I hope it is right - or I will look a bit silly. (I can live with that I guess. Done it for all my life so far.)

 

I dont need say any more.

 

 

[robinsm]

Instead of carrying on for or against, how about waiting for all of the official announements and the realease of the proper material before calling out the revolutionaries. Geez, I wouild like to see all of the paperwork and realeases and and then give an INFORMED opinion, not a knee jerk reaction. I thought we were a grown up group of intelligent aviators, not a "lets assume and make comments without the facts" group.

 

 

[facthunter]

Look to the future as well. There's no long term future for petty differences being exaggerated and a "goodies and Baddies" syndrome starting. Honest competition never hurt anything. "That lot do it, why don't we have it too" is a good argument. Of course the advantages of size and associated (possible,) efficiencies are reduced if we have splits. IF RAAus realises they have a competitor, they will no doubt improve their product (if they have any sense). If they try to impede it, it will just create something we don't need. Angst and nastiness. A time for honest appraisal is upon us, not a dispute over turf or attempt at bullying.

 

No I haven't corresponded ever with them, but there is no reason one couldn't be a member of both. without being discriminated against. I'm a social member of SAAA Chapter 20 and have friends in all aspects of aviation., including gliding. Nev

 

 

[coljones]

Look to the future as well. There's no long term future for petty differences being exaggerated and a "goodies and Baddies" syndrome starting. Honest competition never hurt anything. "That lot do it, why don't we have it too" is a good argument. Of course the advantages of size and associated (possible,) efficiencies are reduced if we have splits. IF RAAus realises they have a competitor, they will no doubt improve their product (if they have any sense). If they try to impede it, it will just create something we don't need. Angst and nastiness. A time for honest appraisal is upon us, not a dispute over turf or attempt at bullying.No I haven't corresponded ever with them, but there is no reason one couldn't be a member of both. without being discriminated against. I'm a social member of SAAA Chapter 20 and have friends in all aspects of aviation., including gliding. Nev

Competition is good unless it is schismatic, where lots of money and energy goes into whether locktite should be red or blue. The fights go on for centuries and invent words like obscuratism and divide families and friends. Is there truly a better mousetrap or just wounded pride¿

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Hey Flying Dog - we didn't get a notification because he did a Cut & Paste, rather than a "Quote"

 

So far I have not been able to comment on anything other than what I know from their Facebook page (no web page and no promised announcement). By definition a Pty Ltd has less than 50 shareholders (owners) - they may only have 5 - and their business (constitution, voting, minutes, finance etc) is private. As a customer they don't need to consult you about Tech Manuals or who is being paid what (unless they chose to). KP and at least one other appeared to me to have an agenda with their comments which got me looking further - I don't go on Facebook - but this got me looking there. I was a little concerned about some of the language there about RAA as "the bad boy", and I know some personalities have axes to grind, so I sincerely hope we are not going to war.

 

For people who think the new organisation is going to magically turn back the clock to an easier time of "do what ever you think is OK" or "just use common sense" - will find it's like ditching one sister for the other - you still have the same Mother-in-Law (CASA). I can bet there will be a robust Tech /Ops / Safety Manual and the private company can decide not to have difficult aircraft and people as customers. They can save money by not insuring customers or printing a magazine. They should be able to get on with the job because the Managing Directors are there by mutual agreement (they liked each other enough to form a company) whereas the members of RAA have voted in a disparate lot with a wide range of views and agendas.

 

We will have to wait for the new kid on the block to announce what they are about.

 

Sue

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

You are already being administered in RAA by a Limited Liability Company Company.

Decisions and voting is already restricted to office holders.

 

You can only vote them in or out of office just like the Australian Parliamentary System.

 

You cannot not be involved with voting on policy. politics, documents, finances etc.

 

They will only report to you not involve you in operational matters or strategic planning that affects every member.

That is not true. Members can, and do, take action - think back to the Extraordinary Meeting in Canberra. They can put up resolutions to be voted on at meetings, and history shows the Board have not always got their way. They could have lost the "Constitution" vote and had to continue as an Incorporated body with the old, flawed, constitution, but it was the Members who had the say. The Board only had their own personal votes - 13 against 10,000. Members can put pressure on their Representatives to resign if they are not putting their interests first - that has happened. They must disclose their finances to the membership each year, if Directors are to be paid, the membership has to vote on it. People like me give the books a good going over for members to discuss and challenge if they want.

 

What you state is more true of the new organisation (with the exception of voting). "You cannot not be involved with voting on policy, politics, documents, finances etc. They will only report to you not involve you in operational matters or strategic planning that affects every member." Insert "customer" for member.

 

You don't expect, and can't have, a say in the running of a private company (for example) BP, you just rock up to the bowser and pay for the fuel. If BP decided not to supply AVGAS you can't force an extraordinary meeting or move a motion or lobby your elected BP board member. You have to live with it. In recreational aviation we have become used to dealing with Clubs (not for profit) - RAA, Aero Clubs, etc. A Private Company is a new experience.

 

 

[Downunder]

If this new company can allow me to do what I do now at lower cost, I will certanly be interested.

 

I think the RAA is largely run as a monopoly (someting I despise greatly) and don't see much of a problem with the structure of this new entity.

 

I have no problem playing one off against the other.

 

It is MY money and if they can provide the same flying privileges at a lower cost why wouldn't I look at them.

 

The free market at work, benefiting the consumer.......

 

 

[flying dog]

Yeah well, seeing somd replies, it seems people are not allowed to SPEAK THEIR OPINIONS if they are not in line with what is expected.

 

(And I wonder why I am so %ucked up with social iteractions.)

 

I'm outa here.

 

Again I dont need this re-enforcement of how useless I am.

 

 

[coljones]

If this new company can allow me to do what I do now at lower cost, I will certanly be interested.I think the RAA is largely run as a monopoly (someting I despise greatly) and don't see much of a problem with the structure of this new entity.

I have no problem playing one off against the other.

 

It is MY money and if they can provide the same flying privileges at a lower cost why wouldn't I look at them.

 

The free market at work, benefiting the consumer.......

But the New Company might Play you off. An attempt was made to expel Ian from RAA by refusing his re-admission. There is probably nothing forcing ELAAA to service all comers. The business model for OPTUS was to refuse to cable up blocks of flats and to use Telstra copper in preference to OPTUS cable. There are no guarantees out there in private enterprise land and if you are refused service you can be offended all you like but no-one will really care. There might even be a ELAAA Customers Association formed to represent the customers to ELAAA.

 

 

[Downunder]

They could offer alot of different things. Good and bad, depending on who you are and what you want.

 

It's their perogative. They offer a service/product. No one puts a gun to your head to take it....

 

Perhaps they will offer LSA and factory builds at a cheaper rate.

 

Maybe even a further discount for lame/L2 maintained aircraft ........

 

 

[SDQDI]

Yeah well, seeing somd replies, it seems people are not allowed to SPEAK THEIR OPINIONS if they are not in line with what is expected.(And I wonder why I am so %ucked up with social iteractions.)

 

I'm outa here.

 

Again I dont need this re-enforcement of how useless I am.

(post moderated)

 

It's not worth leaving over though, at the end of the day this RAA ELAAA thing will be high emotion for a while but will settle down no doubt once all the facts are known.

 

And this Forum is a lot more than two entities, at the end of the day we are all interested in flying and should be able to get along if we focus on that. It would be disappointing to see people leave because they thought they were being unfairly censored in one way or another and I think we should all be able to class our differences (RAA-Elaaa) as politics that, while worth discussing, aren't worth ruining friendships over.

 

 

[kasper]

But the New Company might Play you off. An attempt was made to expel Ian from RAA by refusing his re-admission. There is probably nothing forcing ELAAA to service all comers. The business model for OPTUS was to refuse to cable up blocks of flats and to use Telstra copper in preference to OPTUS cable. There are no guarantees out there in private enterprise land and if you are refused service you can be offended all you like but no-one will really care. There might even be a ELAAA Customers Association formed to represent the customers to ELAAA.

But if you are a company providing fees for service unlike an association where membership can be refused and service denied a stand alone pty ltd company cannot refuse service on a whim AND the consumer laws apply to those services.

Swings and roundabout to the structures used by the 'service provider'

 

 

[kaz3g]

[quote="P4D, post: 582635, You are already being administered in RAA by a Limited Liability Company Company.

 

Decisions and voting is already restricted to office holders.

 

You can only vote them in or out of office just like the Australian Parliamentary System.

 

You cannot not be involved with voting on policy. politics, documents, finances etc.

 

They will only report to you not involve you in operational matters or strategic planning that affects every member.

 

There is a significant difference between a corporation of limited liability in which all its members are able to vote on the composition of the board, and a Pty Ltd which is a private organisation in which only the less than 50 shareholders have a vote.

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

But if you are a company providing fees for service unlike an association where membership can be refused and service denied a stand alone pty ltd company cannot refuse service on a whim AND the consumer laws apply to those services.Swings and roundabout to the structures used by the 'service provider'

The Australian Consumer Law doesn't seem to agree

 

Refusal to supply products or services

 

Kaz