Change is in the air

[Tucano]

The grass may always be greener over the hill and be careful what you wish for - you might just get it.

 

Personally having two organizations is now not productive and we would be better served by one voice. The nature of the world has changed and free aviation has never existed and the constant search for that has lead to nil investment in infrastructure. Those who own and control airfields, do not invest as there is no return to generate the funds to maintain or improve the infrastructure. The organizations that have fought to gain the freedoms we currently enjoy are part of that infrastructure and I regret to say its not going to be free now or at any time soon and a third party will not acheive that by trying to run on "mates rates".

 

It may be a cruel when someone asks for a rate that gives a 5% return on investment but I bet seeing a 0% return on the your next super return would be unacceptable to the person asking for mates rates to use a large chunk of infrastructure regardless of what it is.

 

By the way remember the old line "Divide and conquer"

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Yenn,

 

ELAAA might be saying RAA is the same as they are, but they are different animals. ELAAA is a Pty Ltd is a private company with shareholders and it has customers, RAA Ltd is a Not for Profit - limited liability Company with Members. The RAA constitution sets out the members' rights, and they are more than just voting in some Board members and copping whatever comes. The members have power over the Board and don't need to wait 4 years to vote them out.

 

A Private Company is not required to tell you about their constitution or voting, finances or how they are running the business. They can choose what services to offer and leave the more difficult and expensive ones to someone else. It is there to make a Profit for their Shareholders.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Kasper,

 

You are talking about a different scenario. If the assets (eg building, computers) are being sold to settle the debts owed by RAA and some are bought by a private company, that is a different kettle of fish to the assets of RAA being offered to ELAAA.

 

Consider this scenario - RAA is being wound up by the members as it is going broke (not yet insolvent), the building is sold for $1mil, $800k is used to settle all debts, then the remaining $200k is (under the constitution) given to another like minded Not for Profit, as decided by Members. ELAAA or Blogg's Architects or a private investor can purchase it, but they pay $1mil for it. It is not given to them.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The grass may always be greener over the hill and be careful what you wish for - you might just get it.Personally having two organizations is now not productive and we would be better served by one voice. The nature of the world has changed and free aviation has never existed and the constant search for that has lead to nil investment in infrastructure. Those who own and control airfields, do not invest as there is no return to generate the funds to maintain or improve the infrastructure. The organizations that have fought to gain the freedoms we currently enjoy are part of that infrastructure and I regret to say its not going to be free now or at any time soon and a third party will not acheive that by trying to run on "mates rates".

 

It may be a cruel when someone asks for a rate that gives a 5% return on investment but I bet seeing a 0% return on the your next super return would be unacceptable to the person asking for mates rates to use a large chunk of infrastructure regardless of what it is.

 

By the way remember the old line "Divide and conquer"

I notice a couple of people have even accused CASA of this evil divide and conquer action, no doubt to their surprise.

 

Perhaps if people had not continuously ridiculed them, blocked them, and generally laughed at what they had to say, they might not have resolved to start their own operation up.

 

 

[kaz3g]

We seem to be overlooking the fact that ELAAA and RAAus will be the same. They are companies, not clubs with members. At present RAAus is run by the board members and all we who pay our dues and registration fees can do is vote board members in or out. That is if we take the trouble to vote at all..

Sorry Yenn...not the same. See my earlier post.

 

The very fact you can vote Board members in or out marks the significant difference between them exactly as was the case before RAAus was incorporated. You can also move motions to alter the Constitution (just get the process right) or to put a motion of no confidence in Board or President.

 

Try doing any of that with ELAAA.

 

I do agree with Kasper that, while the competition might be good in the short term, the eventual collapse of the whole shebang might also follow. And yes, Turbs, can't help feeling there is a behind the scenes agenda for CASA in all this; could be a lot of jobs and promotions for their sports aviation folk if it all eventually fell to them to manage completely...registration, licensing and operations.

 

Kaz

 

 

[Geoff13]

I look at it this way. E&LAAA Vs RAA both hope to cater to a fairly small audience.

 

For this to work E&LAAA will need to find a portion of that audience who are unhappy with the current regime.

 

Reading through the threads on this forum over the past 6 months and watching the way that RAA is going, it should be fairly easy to identify that market and cater to it.

 

RAA are looking forward to the middle range of recreational aviators. ie The market between the Rag and Tube and GA. To be honest I think that they cater to that area fairly well, especially the factory build and L2 maintained portion. The new higher weights and controlled airspace push if and when they get it will even more tend to alienate the R&T guys. imho.

 

If the E&LAAA look past that and cater to the Rag and Tube , home/Kit builder and up to 450/544 kgs I think that they will find a market. What they would be unlikely to do would be compete successfully head to head against RAA and if the try that then I feel that they would be planning for failure. They need to cater to the guys who feel that RAA is leaving them and their ideals behind.

 

Is there big enough market to make money? Who knows. Maybe the directors do not want to make money, maybe they really do have the interests of the recreational flyer at the forefront of their plans. Only time will answer that.

 

Personally I am content with RAA atm and am not looking elsewhere but no one should be afraid of competition. Lack of competition is what allows clubs and businesses to become complacent and complacency with kill RAA off quicker than anything else.

 

 

[turboplanner]

And yes, Turbs, can't help feeling there is a behind the scenes agenda for CASA in all this; could be a lot of jobs and promotions for their sports aviation folk if it all eventually fell to them to manage completely...registration, licensing and operations.

They could have made an excellent case to do that years ago.

 

Just think about the public liability implications - better to farm them out where they belong.

 

And take a look at the other self administering bodies which are managing their affairs without the daily traumas CASA would have if it became the administrator.

 

 

[kasper]

...clipped...The organizations that have fought to gain the freedoms we currently enjoy are part of that infrastructure and I regret to say its not going to be free now or at any time soon and a third party will not acheive that by trying to run on "mates rates".

It may be a cruel when someone asks for a rate that gives a 5% return on investment but I bet seeing a 0% return on the your next super return would be unacceptable to the person asking for mates rates to use a large chunk of infrastructure regardless of what it is.

 

By the way remember the old line "Divide and conquer"

I agree that mates rates are not achievable ... but the problem is that RAAus is the organisation that is currently running on "mates rates" - the infrastructure and organisational setup that is RAAus is currently losing money - has lost money for a couple of years and will loos money next year as well in all likelihood ... on that basis the rates RAAus are charging are too low ... but do not ask the members to pay more again because an effective increase from removal of paper mag 1 year followed by another increase the next year is pretty much getting towards the end of many members tether

Now if ELAAA have developed an operating structure that is very lean compared to RAAus and they are able to get through CASA approvals to operate on that structure and they can actually operate with that structure and that results in offers of equivalent service at lower cost than RAAus then RAAus are in financial trouble.

 

Not being involved in ELAAA I do not know what their operating model and processes are but I am hazarding a guess that they are probably looking at

 

• maximum online for interaction on service provision
   
   
  
• maximum online/electronic for required communications to those who service is provided to
   
   
  
• nothing in hardcopy that absolutely does not need to be legally in hardcopy
   
   
  
• owners of the business being the subject matter experts (SMEs) under the CASA approvals as much as possible and
   
   
  
• no physical infrastructure within the business.
   
   
  

 

 

on that basis the investment costs to set up the organisation are minimized as are the ongoing operating costs ...

 

If my entitlement to pilot an aircraft and the currency of the registration of that aircraft can be done through an app or web-browser on a smart phone and the cost to me is equal to or lower than RAAus I am afraid I am likely to move with my feet.

 

And please note that until the current refusal of the RAAus Directors to even consider applying the words of the new constitution to member resolutions I would not have moved or even considered it regardless of any price differential.

 

 

[facthunter]

There's a world of difference between the two. The not for profit is a tax related thing .Cash is member's funds, Not profit.. How they got around this when the SAAA was using their facilities I know not. However

 

I thought the push to take over a lot of the scene was FROM CASA. Why.? The 762 Kgs they used for a weight limit offer, covered the C-152 and the Piper Tomahawk. That's NOT just co-incidence. CASA don't want to be bothered with RAAus stuff and the low end of GA. I think this is a poisoned Chalice for the RAAus, not in the long term interests of their members and the current aims (Not size, as is often inferred But) affordable aviation with a build option firmly in the mix. It has to be. Labour is the major cost of most of this stuff. and the education aspect was always quoted as a benefit. Having the organisation do it's training is a big ask. SAAA don't do it but do talk about it. I personally think they are dreaming as they would be sent broke with such a small member base, and large country to cover.

 

The failure of the RPL to fulfill expectations is a blow to us all. Lets hope it gets sorted. The original effort there was put in by the SAAA. But CASA stuffed that one up. CASA haven't come good with the DOUGH they should find for the RAAus (as they used to) for the work and expense WE save them. (CASA) A proper RPL and experimental GA is all we need. ALL possibilities should be investigated. WE need some positive direction and soon. Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

Talking to RAA pilots and aircraft owners over the weekend. Half a dozen or so.....

 

The number one issue with the RAA was cost. Cost of membership. Cost of aircraft rego.

 

None could see why or understand why it cost $136 per year to print out a plastic card ( as they saw it) for example.

 

There was largely no interest in RAA policy's, politics or administration.

 

All just wanted to be left alone to fly.

 

When I mentioned a new organisation maybe "in the works", the first question was "how much?".

 

Anyway, that was my adhoc survey on the matter.....

 

 

[facthunter]

Perhaps that says it all. Not interested. Just want to fly. A faint hope. Of course we all want everything for nothing and NO effort, but is THAT realistic? If ALL had that view nothing at all would be done. That's pretty obvious. Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

They could have made an excellent case to do that years ago.Just think about the public liability implications - better to farm them out where they belong.

And take a look at the other self administering bodies which are managing their affairs without the daily traumas CASA would have if it became the administrator.

Being at elbow's length didn't avoid them being joined in the widow's action a few years back. They might decide if they run it themselves they can really make sure the regs are complied with and reduce the risk that way.

 

Building the empire might be attractive, too.

 

Don't know that things are all that Rosy with the sister organisations, either.

 

Kaz

 

 

[coljones]

We seem to be overlooking the fact that ELAAA and RAAus will be the same. They are companies, not clubs with members. At present RAAus is run by the board members and all we who pay our dues and registration fees can do is vote board members in or out. That is if we take the trouble to vote at all.That looks to me as if being in RAAus will deliver for an annual fee, registration of my plane and a pilot certificate to fly RAAus reg. planes, plus the ability to vote for board members, recieve an e magazine, and a few other things.

Going the ELAAA way for a bi annual fee I will be able to register my plane and have a pilots certificate. Plus most of the other things from RAAus, such as safety advice etc. Cost of getting the pilot certificate and an acceptance of the plane onto the register I don't know yet.

RAA IS A MEMBER BASED ORGANISATION!!!! THE MEMBERS CAN VOTE FOR THE BOARD, THE MEMBERS CAN VOTE TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION, MEMBERS CAN REQUISITION MEETINGS AND CARRY RESOLUTIONS. The only similarity between RAA and ELAAA is that they are both regulated by ASIC. ELAAA IS A PRIVATE COMPANY OWNED BY THE SHAREHOLDERS.

 

 

[Jim McDowall]

The Commonwealth has limited powers to legislate in regard to discrimination and it is left to the States.In Victoria, the EO Act provides protection to club members as follows:

 

EQUAL OPPORTUNITY ACT 2010 - SECT 65

 

Discrimination against club members

 

A club, or a member of the committee of management or other governing body of a club, must not discriminate against a member of the club—

 

(a) by refusing, or failing to accept, the member's application for a different category or type of membership; or

 

(b) by denying or limiting access to any benefit provided by the club; or

 

© by varying the terms of membership; or

 

(d) by depriving the member of membership; or

 

(e) by subjecting the member to any other detriment.

 

This covers discrimination occurring in Victoria and it is likely other States and the ACT have similar provisions.

"club " means an association of more than 30 persons associated together for social, literary, cultural, political, sporting, athletic or other lawful purposes that—

(a) has a licence (other than a temporary limited licence or a major event licence) to supply liquor under the Liquor Control Reform Act 1998 ; and

 

(b) operates its facilities wholly or partly from its own funds;

 

It would seem that this Act has no application.

 

 

[Nick Sieczkowski]

I agree that mates rates are not achievable ... but the problem is that RAAus is the organisation that is currently running on "mates rates" - the infrastructure and organisational setup that is RAAus is currently losing money - has lost money for a couple of years and will loos money next year as well in all likelihood ... on that basis the rates RAAus are charging are too low ... but do not ask the members to pay more again because an effective increase from removal of paper mag 1 year followed by another increase the next year is pretty much getting towards the end of many members tetherNow if ELAAA have developed an operating structure that is very lean compared to RAAus and they are able to get through CASA approvals to operate on that structure and they can actually operate with that structure and that results in offers of equivalent service at lower cost than RAAus then RAAus are in financial trouble.

 

Not being involved in ELAAA I do not know what their operating model and processes are but I am hazarding a guess that they are probably looking at

 

• maximum online for interaction on service provision
   
   
  
• maximum online/electronic for required communications to those who service is provided to
   
   
  
• nothing in hardcopy that absolutely does not need to be legally in hardcopy
   
   
  
• owners of the business being the subject matter experts (SMEs) under the CASA approvals as much as possible and
   
   
  
• no physical infrastructure within the business.
   
   
  

 

 

on that basis the investment costs to set up the organisation are minimized as are the ongoing operating costs ...

 

If my entitlement to pilot an aircraft and the currency of the registration of that aircraft can be done through an app or web-browser on a smart phone and the cost to me is equal to or lower than RAAus I am afraid I am likely to move with my feet.

 

And please note that until the current refusal of the RAAus Directors to even consider applying the words of the new constitution to member resolutions I would not have moved or even considered it regardless of any price differential.

Ha! I guess you won't be joining them then, hey kasper? You've made it very clear in the past how you hate electronic/online communication and interaction and that you will only accept written correspondence.

 

So, because RAAus refused to accept a members resolution (because it was submitted late, but whatever, that has been done to death now) you are considering moving to a company where the right to make a members resolution doen't exist at all and the CEO has himself said that peoples complaints will fall on deaf ears until those pests are weaned out?

 

The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

 

 

[kasper]

Ha! I guess you won't be joining them then, hey kasper? You've made it very clear in the past how you hate electronic/online communication and interaction and that you will only accept written correspondence.So, because RAAus refused to accept a members resolution (because it was submitted late, but whatever, that has been done to death now) you are considering moving to a company where the right to make a members resolution doen't exist at all and the CEO has himself said that peoples complaints will fall on deaf ears until those pests are weaned out?

 

The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

No. I have been absolutely clear that I like electronic BUT I am forcing RAAus to use paper with me to remind them absolutely that there are drafting errors in the constitution that means what they thought theyvwrrrr getting they failed to achieve. And as we were told they'd come back and fix it that's what I'm waiting for. Not hypocritical at all.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I have not been to the RAAus premises but saw a reference in the letter from the MD to a decision by the current Board to no longer "open the bar" for Directors at the end of a meeting as a cost saving measure.

 

If there is no licence it raises other questions but you are correct that the EO Act does not then apply in so far as the provisions around clubs are concerned. Incorporation with ASIC hasn't changed that fact.

 

We then come back to the interesting question as to whether the organisation is supplying services within the definition established by the High Court in IW v City of Perth. Unlawful discrimination only applies to the "attributes" set out in s6.

 

The constitution covers "disciplinary" matters but doesn't discuss denial of service to a particular member. The Charter, however, documents Member rights and responsibilities and clause 6 appears to specifically cover the appalling situation that Ian found himself in just a few years ago so that is quite a leap forward by the organisation.

 

Kaz

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

I would be concerned that with all this shananigans going on and if it continues that the umpire ( CASA) will blow his whistle and make a call that none of us recreational pilots will like. In most instances the umps decision is final and hard to overturn.

 

Also, there are not enough members or potential members in this country to have more than one coheasive,effective and financial association under which to fly and even that entity will struggle due to numbers.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I would be concerned that with all this shananigans going on and if it continues that the umpire ( CASA) will blow his whistle and make a call that none of us recreational pilots will like. In most instances the umps decision is final and hard to overturn.Also, there are not enough members or potential members in this country to have more than one coheasive,effective and financial association under which to fly and even that entity will struggle due to numbers.

What shenanigans?

About 98% that I can see are speculation on here, with a little try on prune which went flat.

 

 

[ave8rr]

I would be concerned that with all this shananigans going on and if it continues that the umpire ( CASA) will blow his whistle and make a call that none of us recreational pilots will like. In most instances the umps decision is final and hard to overturn.Also, there are not enough members or potential members in this country to have more than one coheasive,effective and financial association under which to fly and even that entity will struggle due to numbers.

What shenanigans?

 

 

[turboplanner]

Also, there are not enough members or potential members in this country to have more than one coheasive,effective and financial association under which to fly and even that entity will struggle due to numbers.

There's a lot more than one organisation now.

 

CASA losts Sport Aircraft categories as:

 

Ultralight & weight shift microlights

 

Gliders

 

Gyroplanes/gyrogliders

 

Hang gliders, paragliders, weight shift microlight

 

Model aircraft

 

Parachuting

 

Warbirds

 

Amateur built and experimental aircraft

 

Recreational ballooning

 

While there appears to be some duplication in that list, I haven't looked to see if there are mistakes, or there are multiple family categories.

 

In any of those groups there could be multiple Associations if that's what people wanted.

 

There is nothing to stop anyone deciding they have a better way of managing things and applying to CASA.

 

Many members of the public think Motor Racing is administered in Australia by CAMS, but it is a relatively minor player.

 

At one stage I was given the task of researching the structure of motor racing in Australia, and found something like twelve National Bodies

 

In one case, one of the national bodies had about a hundred Associations they were co-ordinating.

 

 

[Yenn]

Coljones. What you say in upper case may be correct in theory, but it doaesn't seem to be working in practice. the constitution is being ignored by the board and i think the members are being similarly treated.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Coljones. What you say in upper case may be correct in theory, but it doaesn't seem to be working in practice. the constitution is being ignored by the board and i think the members are being similarly treated.

Yenn,

Again with respect, the constitution is NOT being ignored by the Board. The Board believe they have acted in good faith on behalf of all members, read their response to Bull.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yenn,Again with respect, the constitution is NOT being ignored by the Board. The Board believe they have acted in good faith on behalf of all members, read their response to Bull.

Did you get a chance to compare that response to the current constitution?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Did you get a chance to compare that response to the current constitution?

Yes,

And the 21 days notice of a resolution is a definite requirement of the new constitution and the Corporations Law AFAIK. The fact that falls on a weekend means the Board cannot provide the required notice to members unless received on a business day in time to get the resolution to members. Its is unfortunate the new constitution is sloppy in this area, so it needs to be fixed.