Lack of Airmanship

[Ultralights]

Unfortunatly the lack of Airmanship displayed on Sunday at YHOX, resulted in 2 aircraft coming to withing 20 ft of a Mid air collision on Short final to YHOX runway 34.

 

short version, i was short final. number 2 behind a skipper that was just turning off the runway, at approx 400 ft, the aircraft that WAS following behind me, turned final approx 20 to 50 ft in front of my aircraft forcing me to take immediate extreme evasive manouvers., sadly after no response on the radio from the offending aircraft, i doubt the pilot/instructor has any clue as to how close he came to a firery death falling from the sky onto the M7, taking me with him.

 

A report has been submitted to the ATSB, and the pilot of the offfending aircraft will be contacted shortly.

 

Please people, AIRMANSHIP! just might save your life, even if you dont know it!

 

ps, it was a VH rego aircraft as well....

 

 

[Flyer]

Was the pilot of the "VH" aircraft approachable or available to have a chat with? and if so, was he aware of what had just transpired?

 

No trick questions here, just curious as a similar thing happened to me the other day although there was a lot more room between us...maybe 4-500 feet.

 

We had a chat later and the outcome was that we were both a bit out on where we actually were although we were both aware that the other was out there.....

 

No harm done and the old MK1 eyeballs worked well.

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Ultralights]

unfortunatly not, in the heat of the moment, i had a go at him on the radio, he landed, taxied back to the threshold and took off again before i could complete the circuit for the second time.

 

 

[Flyer]

Fair enough. At the end of the day your training and quick decision making stopped anybody getting hurt.:)

 

That's a good thing. ;)

 

Hopefully all parties will be open to discussion and learnings so as to avoid this situation again.

 

Thanks for your honest response Ultralights.

 

Regards

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest Ideal Line]

Are you sure it was bad airmanship, or just a simple mistake. Maybe he didn't see you (it happens).

 

I learned (and still am learning) to fly at Hoxton Park and have inadvertently cut-off a few aircraft whilst carrying out solo circuits. Thankfully no damage was done and I have learned from those incidents and moved on.

 

IL

 

 

[facthunter]

Airmanship.

 

Ideal Line, you scare me. knowing where other aircraft are in the circuit is a must, and should be part of your attitude before you do any damage. Give it the utmost priority.. Nev.

 

 

[Guest Ideal Line]

Nev, you are quite correct. Having thought about it a bit more, I guess my above comment wasn't quite on the mark. It is good airmanship to know where other traffic is at all times and poor airmanship to not see or know where other aircraft are in the circuit.

 

So Mr. Ultralights is quite correct, it was poor airmanship but I guess what I am trying to say is that no pilot goes out there and intentionally displays poor airmanship or tries to cause havoc but incidents do happen. It is just something people have to be more aware of.

 

IL

 

 

[facthunter]

Training.

 

Thanks IL. It goes back to your training. I just want to emphasise it. The danger of a mid-air is ever-present, and only a good lookout and proper separation technique will help you survive. Thanks for your candid response. Cheers Nev..

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Ideal Line, you probably should look at the statistics for mid air incidents. Over one third of mid air incidents have an instructer on board. This tells me that the attention of both instructer and student was focussed inside the aircraft - this is a good pionter to what was the cause of most of the other mid air incidents.

 

Now that some pilots are fitting so-called anti collision gadgetts to their aircraft, you will find these pilots not looking out side that much. What will happen when these pilots are flying in a high traffic environment, with the warning buzzer going off all the time, is they will most likely not notice it after a while - there will be some very complacent and dangerous pilots out there.

 

HPD

 

 

[Mazda]

High Plains Drifter, NASA once did a study on "diffusion of repsonsibility" and midairs. They found that collisions tended to happen where the responsibility of looking out/separation was in part removed from the pilot - such as controlled airports. I'm sure your comment about dual flight could apply here too.

 

While we are on the subject, for those that fly into GAAP airports, remember that GAAP controllers provide separation on the runway, and it is up to pilots to sight and follow other aicraft in the circuit!

 

 

[Guest Graham Lea]

Hi,

 

I fly out of Hoxton.

 

As part of the pre-takoff stuff, I ALWAYS do a radio check. That way I know I am being heard and can hear others. Lots of people can't be heard, even when they actually speak English. I normally let them know - nicely.

 

A couple of weeks ago someone called downwind just as after I had called and turned.

 

I asked them where they were but got no reply. So I called mid and late before calling base, thinking he would be behind me, and going slow to give us separation.

 

I called base and b* me, so did he. I was getting jumpy I can tell you. I again asked where he was as I didn't have visual. I was looking to the left thinking the had turned early. Nothing. Called mid and late base, no reply.

 

Called final , he did about two seconds later. Very jumpy now. I was about to kick hard right rudder thinking he could be directly above me or below, but I now knew he was behind and close.

 

I became concerned that he would try to land behind me and was about to do a go around when I thought b* this, he can do it. So I landed - long to force him to go around. He went around.

 

By the time I got back to the hangar, and was looking for him, we had lost who it was due to the number in circuit.

 

Pity. I would have liked to meet him. Likewise my partner.

 

Wasn't you Ideal Line was it? :)

 

Seriously: this sort of thing just should NOT happen! There is no excuse.

 

 

[Mazda]

Great idea Graham for you to do a radio check but I wonder if everyone else does? There could be people flying there who are on the wrong frequency and don't know it. So getting no response on the radio doesn't necessarily mean there is no one else there!

 

Even when there is a response it is scary at times. Not so long ago I was on really short final at a CTAF when another pilot (with English as a second language it seems) at the holding point called that he was entering and lining up on that runway! He must have been relying on radio because he sure didn't look out.

 

I do hope we end up with UNICOMs at CTAFs to confirm the radio works and give basic weather and traffic.

 

 

[Guest Graham Lea]

Suddenly I am becoming concerned at what the students are being taught. Runway incursions and lack of attention to basics will kill you and others around you rather quickly. Its the others around who I am concerned about!

 

Yeh, and students should be made to pass an English spoken test before they push the tit. Many of them are simply not able to be understood. I once asked one to repeat the transmission and was told not to be rude by the instructor!

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I look at it another way. Everyone is human and mistakes do get made and will continue to do so. I expect myself to look out the window and likewise the other pilot. If someone misses me on final, I try not to lose sleep over it. If possible I will speak to them later or make it clear on the radio at the time what they have done. Whilst I haven't entered the runway whilst someone is on final, if I ever do, I don't expect to have my ear bashed and abused if I have made a genuine mistake because I wouldn't do that to the other guy.

 

I was once in an aircraft as the passenger when we both looked out and entered and back-tracked the runway. Neither of use saw or acknowledged the aircraft that had given a downwind, base and final call until we saw his landing lights on late final whilst we still had 200 metres to backtrack. My pilot politely told him that he was sorry we didn't see him and that he would need to go around. I try to do the same if it happens to me. If it happens more than once by the same guy, then that's a different story.

 

 

[BigPete]

Now your talkin' ;);););)

 

Let's call it AIRMANSHIP :):) (and as my mum would say - "good manners cost nothing) (actually she would have said "good manners don't cost anything) but I thought I'd keep it short??? ;);)

 

regards

 

 

[Guest Ideal Line]

Wasn't you Ideal Line was it? :)

Nah mate, we both fly the same aircraft :)

 

 

[facthunter]

Relaxed.

 

Brent c, that sounds so cool & reasonable. As long as we are nice to each other, we are OK. How many mistakes do you think we could count on getting away with? Some don't even get away with one. If you are ever at an inquiry, where you are accused of doing something wrong, don't run the line " everyone is human and makes mistakes and will continue to do so" (or similar). I think we can predict with some degree of certainty, that it won't go far. Aviation is pretty unforgiving of mistakes, errors and even misjudgements. That is what makes it distinctly different from many other activities. I am a bit curious as to what a GENUINE mistake is. You will have to forgive my bluntness. You see about a month ago my wife was nearly killed on her motorcycle. when a vehicle pulled out of a Flea-market, in front of her. He said" I didn't see her." (They ALL say that!) though she was wearing a visability vest,). The truth is , that they don't really look. Just over a week ago, 3 foxbats and one other high-wing lined up and took off in a loose formation, as I was about to turn a close final.(full radio) It would have been tight with just the first aircraft, but then 3 more lined up, it became a bit much. I would be interested to hear from any of the pilots concerned as to why their actions could be considered reasonable. I'm not impressed.. Nev

 

 

[Guest brentc]

They came from Leongatha and I can put you in touch with them if you wish!

 

 

[facthunter]

Contact.

 

Thanks for the offer Brent. I just mentioned it here in the context of our thread. I'm not concerned to make an issue of it. The point is all radio calls were made and the aircraft was equipped with strobes.. Nev..

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I'm right down the middle on this one:

 

Aviation is very unforgiving. Your first mistake can easily be your last. For that reason I work very hard on safety - I'm if anything over-aware of dangers and issues.

 

Having said that I was at the holding point one day, did the run up, scanned final and base, saw nothing so taxied out. As soon as I got onto the rwy I spotted an a/c late final. I did a U-turn and taxied back in towards the Navajo behind me and did another U-turn to end up where I started 30 seconds before.

 

The incoming hadn't bothered with radio calls; but despite my careful scan I didn't see him.

 

Bottom line for me was that I felt mortified that I had missed seeing him; however mistakes happen even with very genuine effort. Repeated "mistakes" suggest carelessness, bad attitude or lack of training.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Yenn]

As you all agree mistakes happen. When they do the important thing is to stay safe. Go around if necessary, it doesn't cost much and the time will allow the heart rate to settle. At most strips if it gets really serious you can usually land on the adjacent grass. Have a look where the runway markers are. Just avoid the runway lights.

 

The main thing is to not let it upset you because that is when you will make a mistake. Stay safe at all costs.

 

 

[Guest browng]

The incoming hadn't bothered with radio calls; but despite my careful scan I didn't see him.

Well said, and he could always have been operating non-radio perfectly legally, there is no substitute for the MK1 eyball...ever. And also bear in mind that an inexperienced pilot may simply be obeying the age old rule of cockpit priorities; Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I always belived that airmanship was usually things like not allowing your propwash to blow into hangers or at other aircraft or making sure that the aircraft you hired is returned on time so the next pilot wont be left waiting, don't leave your aircraft in the refueliing area while you have coffee ect ect

 

what has been disscussed above is in my opinion more to do with training and procedures and maybe inexperience rather than airmanship. can they fine /jail you for bad airmanship?

 

just a view

 

ozzie

 

 

[jcamp]

can they fine /jail you for bad airmanship?ozzie

Just the death penalty.

 

 

[727engineer]

It is great to see that manners still exist in the wonderful world of Rec aviation.

 

There was an incident the other day at CNS where some GA private wouldn't talk to the tower and Jetstar had to do a go around just to "keep it safe", He was stopped on the apron just before the Runway by a security vehicle, and thought that he didn't have to talk to control??!!??? When they asked him where he was turning after take off, he was very vague and didn't seem to want to divulge any communication at all.

 

I believe that it is a great responsibility to those around you to let them know what you are doing in a high traffic area, whether you have to or not, but those (like us) who are responsible and have good manners will keep an eye out, and an ear for what it is worth.

 

727engineer