SAAA & RAAus Partnership To Improve Safety!

[farri]

 

 

SAAA & RAAus partnership to improve safety 7 October 2016

 

RAAus and the SAAA have committed to a partnership agreement where both organisations will exchange desensitised safety management data. This data is critical in achieving improved safety outcomes to our membership and the wider GA community. Under the agreement, the SAAA will adopt the Occurrence Management System (OMS) developed by RAAus to specifically support the needs of sport aviation.

 

 

The OMS, launched in October 2015 is a world class reporting system that has provided RAAus members with a seamless and simple way to report occurrences which is driving unprecedented safety improvements across the sport aviation community.

 

This agreement means that all SAAA members will be able to report safety incidents directly from the SAAA website using a series of simple forms just as RAAus members do now.

 

Where necessary, SAAA will undertake to submit any mandatory reports to the ATSB on their members' behalf so, just as RAAus members do now, they only have to lodge once.

 

RAAus is working with SAAA and we expect to have the system functional within the next few months for SAAA members.

 

For those coming to Oz-Kosh this weekend, come on down to the SAAA hangar on Saturday at 12PM where Martin Daniell and the RAAus team will be demonstrating the system and will be available to answer all of your questions.

 

RAAus continues to explore ways to bring the aviation community together and we are excited about this partnership with SAAA.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

The OMS, launched in October 2015 is a world class reporting system that has provided RAAus members with a seamless and simple way to report occurrences which is driving unprecedented safety improvements across the sport aviation community.

Really? I haven't seen any education as the result of safety data rolled out. The safety month material has been sent to FTFs. It's likely the people who need this education only see an FTF rep when their BFR is completed. The list of hangar talks doesn't have any scheduled for the Sydney area. How about some online stuff?

 

 

[jetjr]

It's coming

 

 

[Roundsounds]

It's coming

So I've read, many times...

 

 

[Downunder]

It's coming

I was going to write "It's always coming".... but you beat me to it...lol..

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I see there are 17 Hangar talks listed on the portal, not one in/near a Capitol City. Why not put the material on the website for access to the general membership? I'm a Senior Instructor and only have access to the material if I'm associated with a FTF. Too much "knowledge is power" going on.

 

 

[Keith Page]

SAAA & RAAus partnership to improve safety 7 October 2016

 

RAAus and the SAAA have committed to a partnership agreement where both organisations will exchange desensitised safety management data. This data is critical in achieving improved safety outcomes to our membership and the wider GA community. Under the agreement, the SAAA will adopt the Occurrence Management System (OMS) developed by RAAus to specifically support the needs of sport aviation.

 

 

The OMS, launched in October 2015 is a world class reporting system that has provided RAAus members with a seamless and simple way to report occurrences which is driving unprecedented safety improvements across the sport aviation community.

 

This agreement means that all SAAA members will be able to report safety incidents directly from the SAAA website using a series of simple forms just as RAAus members do now.

 

Where necessary, SAAA will undertake to submit any mandatory reports to the ATSB on their members' behalf so, just as RAAus members do now, they only have to lodge once.

 

RAAus is working with SAAA and we expect to have the system functional within the next few months for SAAA members.

 

For those coming to Oz-Kosh this weekend, come on down to the SAAA hangar on Saturday at 12PM where Martin Daniell and the RAAus team will be demonstrating the system and will be available to answer all of your questions.

 

RAAus continues to explore ways to bring the aviation community together and we are excited about this partnership with SAAA.

OK.. Would it be better to have situations where there are very minimal incidents?

What is the benefit of reporting accidents/incidents?

 

Time and effort of good education and culture training would be the better avenue to correct these looming problems.

 

Have these people trained, educated in procedures and cultured to good behaviour and safety will be the byproduct. If safety and safety and safety is pushed at people they will resent safety, demonstrating the culture/behaviour education will show the good benefits.

 

KP

 

 

[Happyflyer]

What is the benefit of reporting accidents/incidents?KP

You are joking aren't you?

 

 

[Roundsounds]

OK.. Would it be better to have situations where there are very minimal incidents?What is the benefit of reporting accidents/incidents?

Time and effort of good education and culture training would be the better avenue to correct these looming problems.

 

Have these people trained, educated in procedures and cultured to good behaviour and safety will be the byproduct. If safety and safety and safety is pushed at people they will resent safety, demonstrating the culture/behaviour education will show the good benefits.

 

KP

A functioning safety management system gathers data, analyses the data to find trends. Based on the trends appropriate training packages are then developed and delivered. Continuing data review will determine how effective the training has been. Simply gathering data does not improve safety, neither does creating new regulations and penalties. If people are breaching reg's the reg's are wrong or the people not educated as to the purpose of the reg'.

I work for an organisation with a mature and highly effective SMS.

 

 

[Keith Page]

You are joking aren't you?

Think about it for a bit..

 

Read to understand the points.

 

Good education and training will be a very good avenue, which is on the way to greatly minimising incidents.

 

We can report accidents and incidents till the cows come home, however preventing the need is an easy option.

 

Training and educating culture is something people will hand about themselves plus a lot of people will inadvertently copy.

 

KP

 

 

[Keith Page]

A functioning safety management system gathers data, analyses the data to find trends. Based on the trends appropriate training packages are then developed and delivered. Continuing data review will determine how effective the training has been. Simply gathering data does not improve safety, neither does creating new regulations and penalties. If people are breaching reg's the reg's are wrong or the people not educated as to the purpose of the reg'.I work for an organisation with a mature and highly effective SMS.

I like that one -- how often do we see a problem fixed with another rule. Eventually we have that many rules nothing can be done because as soon as we do anything we are breaking a rule.

KP

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Think about it for a bit..Read to understand the points.

Good education and training will be a very good avenue, which is on the way to greatly minimising incidents.

 

We can report accidents and incidents till the cows come home, however preventing the need is an easy option.

 

Training and educating culture is something people will hand about themselves plus a lot of people will inadvertently copy.

 

KP

Ok, let's look at the points:

1. Good education:

 

FTFs have been educating pilots for many years. If you are suggesting there are deficiencies in knowledge, what are the deficient areas?

 

2. Good training:

 

FTFs have been training pilots for many years. If you are suggesting there are deficiencies in skills, what are these skills?

 

3. Minimising incidents:

 

What are the common ncidents? Are they by manoeuvre, location, aircraft type, pilot demographic?

 

No instructors of FTFs set out to educate/train poorly and no pilot goes flying with the intention of having an incident!

 

The answers to these questions can only be effectively answered by gathering and reviewing data.

 

 

[kaz3g]

A functioning safety management system gathers data, analyses the data to find trends. Based on the trends appropriate training packages are then developed and delivered. Continuing data review will determine how effective the training has been. Simply gathering data does not improve safety, neither does creating new regulations and penalties. If people are breaching reg's the reg's are wrong or the people not educated as to the purpose of the reg'.I work for an organisation with a mature and highly effective SMS.

I think the process is to collect the data first, then analyse, then structure training packages (education for Keith) while still collecting data and then analysing it again to gauge the effectiveness of the training delivered and review/refine it.

 

Leave a step out and it turns to crap.

 

Regulations of themselves generally do little for safety, but the more sensible ones are the consequence of someone's serious stuff up eg the proscription against flying VFR into cloud, not flying below 1000 over populous areas and so on. It is unfortunately the case that you can't regulate idiots especially if the regulations are unintelligible to us ordinary mortals and raise doubts about the ability of the write to use plain English.

 

Kaz

 

I just saw the additional comments from Keith and the thought immediately struck me that the purpose of this new proposal from CASA seems to be to regulate without the host of exemptions that are inflicted on RAAus. To me, that says the CAR and CASR will be applied to the new cohort just as they are to other VH registered aircraft.

 

It's going to be an interesting journey, I think.

 

 

[djpacro]

Seems to be a lot of effort just to duplicate ATSB efforts in gathering data. ATSB reports consistently show the same causes year in year out with diddly squat change in the accident rate.

 

 

[kasper]

And a useful outcome of the RAA SMS would be to, as has been noted on mature SMS systems and culture, analysis of root cause to focus and target the response ... might be interesting to then have a chat with Tech Manager and the Board to ask what purpose some of the recently introduced changes are intended to address ... because again as has been noted, year in year out the ATSB analysis shows that the vast majority of issues are pilot judgement related and very few are airfrmae related.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I think the process is to collect the data first, then analyse, then structure training packages (education for Keith) while still collecting data and then analysing it again to gauge the effectiveness of the training delivered and review/refine it.Leave a step out and it turns to crap.

 

.

Yep, pretty sure that's how I described it?

Not sure what step I'd missed?

 

 

[Keith Page]

Seems to be a lot of effort just to duplicate ATSB efforts in gathering data. ATSB reports consistently show the same causes year in year out with diddly squat change in the accident rate.

Yes you are on to it.

The big problem here a number of people listen/read to reply not listen/read to understand.

 

As I see as of the current situation the fix is more regulations which make the authors and readers warm and fuzzy, result "diddly squat" is your answer.

 

As I see the situation the number of problems are human factor related, simply put, us humans have short comings what ever we do those problems will persist. To get around those problems we have to develop good procedures. i.e..Taught the simple things how to minimise the incidents.

 

KP

 

 

[Roundsounds]

.As I see the situation the number of problems are human factor related, simply put, us humans have short comings what ever we do those problems will persist. To get around those problems we have to develop good procedures. i.e..Taught the simple things how to minimise the incidents.

KP

Keith, when you say Human Factors - I assume you are talking about what is now referred to as Non Technical Skills (NTS)?

What particular NTS are related to recent incidents?

 

Situational awareness, decision making, task prioritisation, communication or threat and error management?

 

Again, a proper SMS will identify the precise problem areas and allow targeted training to improve safety. Simply saying accidents are the result of HF without identifying the factor of HF ain't going to fix anything. In my opinion RAAus don't understand what HF is all about, let alone be skilled to teach it.

 

 

[jetjr]

ATSB uses data provided by RAA and others, crap data was evident in recent Jabiru debarcle.

 

RAA indicated in safety talk they have 9000 members, 170?? CFI, best they can do is get them involved and provide info to members directly. There's some safety documents coming shortly they said.

 

Idea for local CFI to run safety talks came from members

 

When last asked just 2 CFI volunteered to get involved.

 

They are developing videos, resources and incentives like free memberships to encourage Cfi to get run safety talks and make them quick and easier

 

They are seeking ideas and feedback on documents and efforts, let them know what you suggest. Don't just tell forum members.

 

Safety management is an annoying issue as it can be nebulous and ineffective or well run and have good results. Costs can be exponential so it's a balancing act.

 

Unless people are encouraged on board it won't work. In industry it's done by penalties.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Case of this morning aircraft leaving

 

I personally would not have started the engine

 

personally I think some have no brains at all

 

personally who the hell cares

 

Wind started to dropped at about 1200 hrs beautifull for flight around 1330 hrs Neil

 

 

[Roundsounds]

They are seeking ideas and feedback on documents and efforts, let them know what you suggest. Don't just tell forum members.

.

I've run successful GA charter and pilot training outfits as Chief Pilot/CFI/ATO/proprietor and now work for an airline as a trainer. I'm keen to give back to the industry and offered my services which were taken up for a while. Now it's don't call us, we'll call you. I've obviously ruffled some feathers, but nobody is prepared to talk to me about why I've been sidelined.

The only way the safety record in this end of the aviation industry is going to improve is through targeted mass training. That isn't going to happen if the data analysis isn't done and delivery of training is limited to a few CFIs. Training material needs to be made available through FTFs and online resources.

 

 

[jetjr]

I think some are seeing an SMS that easy and simple and not GA or commercial level, problem is that idea won't be effective or palatable to CASA - who is driving it all.

 

The resources will be there for anyone to use , some money spent on short videos online and they are calling for feedback.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

?What is the benefit of reporting accidents/incidents?

Better question is what will happen from there, how will the offenders be approached and then treated?

 

One problem with this system is power, gives power to sad sacks with no lives who start to feel important reporting people, and also the same effect on "badge policemen" who act upon the complaints.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Better question is what will happen from there, how will the offenders be approached and then treated?One problem with this system is power, gives power to sad sacks with no lives who start to feel important reporting people, and also the same effect on "badge policemen" who act upon the complaints.

This is easily answered, investigate only serious breaches. All reports are de-identified and entered into the database - safety data is a separate function to surveillance. If a Reg is often breached its likely the Reg is wrong, so change it or if it's a lack of knowledge - educate.

If a serious breach has occurred investigate why. (produce a list of breaches to be investigated) if it's an error educate the person, if it's a deliberate breach or they repeat the breach, then take action.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I think some are seeing an SMS that easy and simple and not GA or commercial level.

It only needs to be simple, anything complex won't work. The data gathering has been going on for years. The problem is every incident is investigated in depth. Simply pour the data into buckets, review the data buckets periodically to see which ones are filling up. Work out why they're filling up and address the problem - usually education. Only accidents resulting in injury/death need be investigated. This investigation should be done by an independent outside party. Why independent? - Let's say it's an op's dept deficiency and op's are running the investigation, where do you think blame will be placed?