Camit closing

[Oscar]

Don't count on it. The causes of the situation have been covered fairly well for those prepared to look hard. Things are not likely to get better in the short term for the CAMit Organisation.. Might be OK if they had a market outside of Jabiru. Drones ? That's been tried but who Knows. Every day passing makes it less likely to have life breathed back into it. I'm sure Ian would have tried all possibilities he could think of. Nev

CAMit was fairly rapidly (in terms of the overall market, world-wide) developing its market. CAMit engines (and service) are very popular with the Sonex crowd - witness the OEM agreement with Sonex, who build their own VW conversions BUT were smart enough to recognise that there was significant demand for the Jabiru engines and in the CAMit engine they had access to something that was being enthusiastically received by Sonex builders as a great match to their high-quality airframes. And Sonex have, I believe, well in excess of 1000 airframe kits sold. If I didn't own a Jab., a Onex with the CAMit 3300 engine in it, would be an absolute hoot as deeply personal travel device (aka drill holes in the sky for the sheer thrill of it stuff..).

 

The CAMit engine in the Bathawk was ASTM-certified (not sure of the details there, but Bathawk was prepared to put its 'manufacturer' status behind the CAMit engine). Bathawk doesn't have huge numbers of aircraft out there, but it is gaining a reputation as a damn useful workhorse in its area - even to the point of being armed! It performs much the same role as the Seabird Seeker (another excellent Australian product, sadly now lost to overseas interests.)

 

It is easy to criticise CAMit for having been 'over-capitalised' for the market situation in which is found itself in the last few years, and I would agree that had Ian Bent been a ruthless businessman he would have contracted (in the sense of reduced, not put out to contract) his operation to fit the circumstances. Machines could have been shut down, or disposed of, staff could have been laid off or put on reduced hours. That's easy to say, looking in from the outside - though it didn't work for Chrysler Australia, Ford Australia, Holden... and those are companies with pretty damn ruthless cost management ethics. Anybody remember the UK car manufacturing industry? I read last week that Ford USA have shut down one plant that manufactures Mustangs.. I have personally spent some weeks in the CAMit factory, got to know a lot of the people there and I would have refused to be the person walking down the floor telling a bunch of terrific people which ones were no longer required.

 

Being a decent bloke may not be alpha-level business practise, I accept, but some of us place a value on being able to go to sleep at night without dealing with the trip that we are going to shaft someone (and his family), the next day.

 

Jabiru itself - as Rod Stiff and Sue Woods have stated - is running at minimal production and there have been some rumored problems there for airframe production as well in the last few weeks. Hopefully, those are unfounded rumors. As a Jabiru owner, I state once again that the airframe they have produced and the general level of service that they provide is something for which Australian aviation should be monumentally proud and supportive.

 

However, I state for the record that I do NOT believe that 'the Chinese engine' will be a successful retro-fit into existing Jabs. It may well perform adequately in new Jabs. with an optimised installation, but for technical reasons to do with especially cooling capacity of a cast-finned engine, as a 'drop-in' change-over for older Jabs. it won't cut the mustard. That has NOTHING do do with the sourcing, it has to do with basic physics. If Jabiru offer it as a replacement with a complete FWF kit - more likely to work well.

 

The CAE 'core replacement' engine was developed as a drop-in package. It would be ingenuous to say that it would not have been even better with a better installation set-up than Jab. provides as standard, but amongst other things, it provided better 'headroom' for CHTs due to better alloy. A lot of other detail features provided more confidence in your flying on a daily basis.

 

The phrase 'a Faustian Bargain' is well understood. Nothing comes for nothing, and Jabiru moving to Chinese manufacture of its engines, may well prove to be just that. For all our sakes, I hope it won't, but hope springs eternal, while the CAMit engine was here-and-now delivering..

 

 

[facthunter]

Well the receivers can adopt a trade out of difficulties if it's feasible. I wouldn't like to be relying on a Chinese product like that unless you had people there checking. They can make good stuff. I've seen some of it but I've also seen stuff that won't work, because they reduce a spec here and there..Nev

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

The automotive industry in China has been the largest in the world measured by automobile unit production since 2008.[1][2][3] Since 2009 annual production of automobiles in China exceeds that of the European Union or that of the United States and Japan combined.

 

They must be doing something right.

 

I believe that they have over 70 vehicle manufactures

 

Guess that as long as you don't buy a cheap pair of pliers or similar, the big firms have a good reputation.

 

PHIL

 

 

[Oscar]

Well the receivers can adopt a trade out of difficulties if it's feasible. I wouldn't like to be relying on a Chinese product like that unless you had people there checking. They can make good stuff. I've seen some of it but I've also seen stuff that won't work, because they reduce a spec here and there..Nev

Nev - it's not the source that's the likely Archilles heel for the Jab 'Chinese engine' - the Chinese can do excellent work, though their QA can be a bit iffy. But the Nanchangs, for a start, are bloody good aircraft and as hi-tech for the class as anything.

 

Look at the number of fins on the Jab. Chinese heads: from the Ozkosh photos, I count 15. Look at the number of fins on a current Jab. (or CAMit) engine: from the Jab. website, I count 20. Cooling capacity is mandated by the area available to the airflow. My Series 1 heads - the first used on J2200 engines - has 15 fins. The first 2200 engines worked ok for a light aircraft, flown with good regard for engine management, on 100LL.

 

Do the maths. If you are flying a 600 kg MTOW aircraft on a warm day on even 98 MON (more likely to have deteriorated to around 95 MON) to the same flight profile as would work for a 430 kg MTOW aircraft on 100 RON - what's the potential for detonation (let alone excessive chts.?.)

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I know of many, many businesses that this has happened to, that operated in Aus very successfully but wanted to retain a bigger slice of their pie, but ended up with nothing.

Yup, but not for the reasons you write.

 

Look at the number of fins on the Jab. Chinese heads: from the Ozkosh photos, I count 15. Look at the number of fins on a current Jab. (or CAMit) engine: from the Jab. website, I count 20. Cooling capacity is mandated by the area available to the airflow. )

No, the ability to transfer and carry heat away is what's important.

 

CZ and a few other motorcycle manufacturers are examples;

 

The orange CZ bike on the left is mid 60's to 1973 head, the radial head in the middle picture came along in 1973, and on the right, the 1974 onwards race bikes (that became production) had every 2nd barrel fin removed with the radial head 'porcupined'. ... or in other words, CZ found less to be better. Multiple World Champions and 2 stroke that is harder on cooling, so after making hundreds of thousands of them and being the "gun" motocross bike for 10 years straight ('65 to '75), I guess they know something.

 

"Finning area" is only relevant to what heat can be carried away.

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Yes, there's always a new engine coming, that's going to be the answer to everybody's prayers: cheaper, lighter, better in every way.Sadly the ratio of engines 'coming' to engines 'arrived' is very low. Words are free, and marketing hype is cheap.

 

.

Yeah, nah.

 

I think I just wrote that the first prototype is about to be run, wait a sec let me look, why yes I did.

 

There is no "hype", the Creator has not publicised it at all anywhere, I'm the only one who's mentioned it to raise a little hope that not everything is doom and gloom. The Creator will mention it in his good time, I am hoping he may do that by this year's end.

 

As for "words are free", how much do you think I pulled out of my own pocket to have casting dies made for mine, and machining jigs, besides all the time designing and sourcing. I also had to take a min batch of 25 cast sample blocks that are sitting waiting for me to get back to where I was .... not to mention that's money I could have used elsewhere in the meantime. Now that I have some stability again for the next 3 to 5 years after a couple of years that got a bit wonky, I will look at getting back into mine.

 

 

[Oscar]

Yup, but not for the reasons you write.

No, the ability to transfer and carry heat away is what's important.

 

"Finning area" is only relevant to what heat can be carried away.

 

[ATTACH=full]46309[/ATTACH]

But fin area is entirely relevant to the airflow past it. In the CZ examples, there is no p--delta, the fin area works in ambient. That is NOT the case for (most) aero-engines.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

But fin area is entirely relevant to the airflow past it. In the CZ examples, there is no p--delta, the fin area works in ambient. That is NOT the case for (most) aero-engines.

Physics does not change because of application.

 

Maico 400, 1971, 1975 and 1981, probably close to a 50% reduction in finning. Note a 25% increase in HP over the time period as well. At full noise these engines pump out 100 to 150 HP per litre, Jab pumps out 30 HP per litre ...

 

 

But anyway, what you have posted is to insinuate that Jab's 15 fins won't work as well as previous 20 fins without any evidence at all, I just posted factual examples where reducing fin area has worked for major manufacturers operating air cooled engines under extreme conditions.

 

 

[jetjr]

Rod is claiming cht below 100 deg C with new heads and cylinders

 

 

[gandalph]

Sorry but to succeed in business you need many things.A good product is one of them.

 

A nice guy is certainly not. In fact to make a business succeed you really do need to have just a little bit of Mongrel in you.

 

You need a million other things as well.

 

A Market.

 

Market Share.

 

Affordable Money.

 

Business acumen.

 

There are so many things you need to make it work, and missing out on any one of them will without doubt put you in long term jeopardy.

Geoff 13 is being quite ruthless but very accurate when he said that being a nice guy is NOT one of the factors needed to succeed in business. However I would say that to succeed in business you DO need to have what I call "Client Focus". I'd describe that as a business' ability (and desire) to establish a good working relationship with it's clients, make them feel that they are valued as customers and that the business understands (or at least appears to understand) the clients needs/demands and goes as far as it can to meet those needs/demands while still maintaining sound economic business principles.

 

I have done business with Jabiru and I've done business with CAMit and I have had nothing but good experiences with both companies. Both companies and their staff have been very accommodating and met all my needs and apart from being roasted by Rod once because of my links with a third party that he was in disagreement with at the time (a clear case of shooting the messenger but I'm used to that now.....) I'm happy to say that we parted on convivial terms.

 

However if one was to trawl though these forums and other's from the US & Europe, I'd suggest that my happy experiences with Jabiru Australia hasn't been shared by everyone else, whereas pretty much all of the posts I've seen here and on other sites relating to dealings with CAMit and with Ian Bent have been very positive. So perhaps while Rod and Sue may well have lots of business acumen - I hold back from suggesting that they may have a bit of the mongrel in them - I'm pretty sure that if a poll was taken as to which company embraced the concept of client focus best that Jabiru Australia would not fare well.

 

I think we'd all agree that since the CASA debacle, Jabiru Australia has lifted it's game in respect to better communications with it's client base so maybe they've learned some lessons from CAMit there. If they are to survive they will need to.

 

All the above may sound like twaddle but I speak from some experience: I was business for myself for 15 years some time ago in an industry that was declining. I made it a point of honour that all my clients and staff understood that if there was a fault with a product or a problem with a service we would fix it. The end result of that policy was that while all of my competitor's business' shrank at the rate of at least 3-5% annually my business grew by 5-7% annually. I don't think I had a better product but I'm damn sure I had a better relationship with my clients.

 

There's a lesson here for the RAA and for the E&LAA as well.

 

 

[scsirob]

Perhaps if Rod wants simple, reliable, and light, he should talk to D-Motor. They have a 4-cylinder 2.7l and a 6-cylinder 4.0l flat-head engine, with nicasil barrels, impossible for valves to ruin an engine, direct drive, water cooled and same mount as 2200/3300 engines. I'm sure he will be reminded of the KFM adventure, but by making proper arrangements regarding IP, Jabiru can get themselves a new engine that is way beyond the prototype state, and without the finnicky air cooling issues.

 

I believe there's actually a Jabiru airframe already equipped with a D-Motor

 

 

[scsirob]

Maico 400, 1971, 1975 and 1981, probably close to a 50% reduction in finning...

But anyway, what you have posted is to insinuate that Jab's 15 fins won't work as well as previous 20 fins without any evidence at all, I just posted factual examples where reducing fin area has worked for major manufacturers operating air cooled engines under extreme conditions.

Pure speculation on my side perhaps, but could the manufacturer have found out that the earlier heads actually were overly effective and they could drive down cost by digging a bit into the design margins?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Perhaps if Rod wants simple, reliable, and light, he should talk to D-Motor.

No, because ridiculous price. At that price point you would be entertaining far more famous brands starting at Rotax, it is a retail business, not a personal choice situation.

 

Pure speculation on my side perhaps, but could the manufacturer have found out that the earlier heads actually were overly effective and they could drive down cost by digging a bit into the design margins?

No, opposite, there's plenty of reading here and on the net about Jabiru and CHTs.

 

 

[scsirob]

No, because ridiculous price. At that price point you would be entertaining far more famous brands starting at Rotax, it is a retail business, not a personal choice situation.

Talk to them. AUS$ is strong, and retail price != OEM price.

 

No, opposite, there's plenty of reading here and on the net about Jabiru and CHTs.

I am well aware of Jabiru's cooing margins. I meant the example of the Maico engines.

 

 

[pda]

Talk to them. AUS$ is strong, and retail price != OEM price.I am well aware of Jabiru's cooing margins. I meant the example of the Maico engines.

Perhaps if Rod wants simple, reliable, and light, he should talk to D-Motor. They have a 4-cylinder 2.7l and a 6-cylinder 4.0l flat-head engine, with nicasil barrels, impossible for valves to ruin an engine, direct drive, water cooled and same mount as 2200/3300 engines. I'm sure he will be reminded of the KFM adventure, but by making proper arrangements regarding IP, Jabiru can get themselves a new engine that is way beyond the prototype state, and without the finnicky air cooling issues.I believe there's actually a Jabiru airframe already equipped with a D-Motor

If you read recent news on the D Motor site, they appear to be having much grief obtaining reliable castings. The Camit process of fully machined components is probably a relatively expensive process but they are quality reliable components every time.

 

 

[scsirob]

If you read recent news on the D Motor site, they appear to be having much grief obtaining reliable castings. The Camit process of fully machined components is probably a relatively expensive process but they are quality reliable components every time.

True. They are successful in making their own castings for the 4-cylinder, but the 6-cylinder turns out to be too hard for them to make in-house. At least they are being honest about it.

 

 

[mkennard]

Does anyone know of an alternative to the 6 cylinder? I had a look at UL which looks good though expensive.

 

 

[geoffreywh]

you come back to the same problem every time, The only replacements (as yet) are expensive ( $10K + more.) and/or unproven. The Jab 6 was/is? a nice R.A.A. engine. Cheap,powerful, (but with reliability problems for some) Probably the closest price/weight alternatives are all Auto Conversions. Honda Jazz . Suzuki Geo or Take-off BMW, or, if you have ground clearance and want an aviation engine? then ROTEC takes the biscuit. Maybe just hope that the "chinese" Jab works out well. (excuse sobbing sound)

 

 

[mkennard]

You just put a vision in my head of a rotec in a Jabiru, what a sight. I got 250 hours out of my jab 6. That's why the last week has been interesting because I need a replacement and went to OzKosh with that in mind.

 

you come back to the same problem every time, The only replacements (as yet) are expensive ( $10K + more.) and/or unproven. The Jab 6 was/is? a nice R.A.A. engine. Cheap,powerful, (but with reliability problems for some) Probably the closest price/weight alternatives are all Auto Conversions. Honda Jazz . Suzuki Geo or Take-off BMW, or, if you have ground clearance and want an aviation engine? then ROTEC takes the biscuit. Maybe just hope that the "chinese" Jab works out well. (excuse sobbing sound)

[facthunter]

Rotec is a "period" engine, for people who like the look and sound of a round engine. It's not light. Best in something like a Murphy Rebel. Nev

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

I am aware there has been some sort of rift between CAMit and Jabiru for a while now for whatever reasons. The new Jabiru and Camit engines are not exactly the same and there is a market for Camit as an export product. In the USA they could do a chapter !! restructure where as here once you are technically insolvent, any trading is going to land the directors in hot water. Once a receiver moves in it is now just a profit opportunity for the receiver and they suck it dry. Does anybody know if it has really closed or is it trading under management or is it just a big layoff?

 

 

[jetjr]

Receivers engaged, no hope of restarting

 

 

[facthunter]

Buzzards circling. Abandon all hope. Nev

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Receivers engaged, no hope of restarting

Maybe they will find a buyer who can reactivate it. The main thing will be able to get the key staff back.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Maybe they will find a buyer who can reactivate it. The main thing will be able to get the key staff back.

Some of the key staff are of retirement age........