Camit closing

[scsirob]

Romantic nonsense, I doubt Jab's engine business will even feel a speed bump (once past the current CASA situation), unless a genuine engine competitor shows up on equal footing. While traditionalists hang on for dear life to those "simple, air cooled, direct drive" engines, Jabiru will have a market

Sue explicitly wrote that volume is very, very low. It was also mentioned that they had hardly any engines in stock anymore. So there's no volume to speak of. Now how much sense does it make for Jabiru to start an entire new engine production line with all associated costs, just to feed a few airframes a month, while Jabiru is already strapped for cash from the CASA situation? It defies logic.

 

 

[jetjr]

I think maybe the caution tag button is the furthest right and big fingers press it when scrolling on small screens like iPad or phone

 

 

[jetjr]

I agree with both Oscar and Bex.

 

Jabiru has so badly damaged its own reputation with engine problems and poor solutions and customer service over last several years it may not recover in many eyes. CAE was the solution here.

 

They do however have a significant captive market which sadly is more captive if airframe prices stay low.

 

LSA have no choice but to implement whatever Jabiru come up with.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Can someone explain to me what it is with this 'caution' tag that appears ocassionally on posts? What exactly is it supposed to mean or imply?

It means you're not someone to be trusted.

 

 

[jetjr]

Sorry TP it was a sitter

 

 

[David Isaac]

Sorry TP it was a sitter

That was gold Jetjr.

 

 

[Oscar]

It is entirely the sole responsibility of Jabiru to ensure that a part is sound, and to spec when it gets to a customer's hands, nothing to do with where it came from, as they have well proven.That is entirely true; but plenty of Jab. owners know the story of the 5000 pistons incorrectly machined for the circlip groove, which led to re-machining and a spate of circlip issues. Those pistons were sourced in China, Bex, and the perception of QC issues remains in people's minds. There is also no paucity of people who know that the Jabiru 'Chinese engine' has taken four years to get to the stage where it was ready for testing, and that the test mule aircraft was dragged back into Bundy on a truck on rather more than one occasion. .

 

Romantic nonsense, I doubt Jab's engine business will even feel a speed bump (once past the current CASA situation), unless a genuine engine competitor shows up on equal footing.

 

You don't feel a speed bump if you are stationary, and that is almost where Jab. is at the moment. The 'Chinese engine' could prove to be the answer to the Maiden's Prayer - and for the sake of Jabiru, I hope it will be - but it starts with a huge handicap in terms of the trust owners need to have to invest in a major change of engine. The CAMit alternative had demonstrably a 'pedigree' and continuing success. I suspect that CAMit actually sold more new CAE engines in the last couple of years than Jabiru did.

 

While traditionalists hang on for dear life to those "simple, air cooled, direct drive" engines, Jabiru will have a market.

 

Name me one new development of a NON 'simple,air-cooled direct-drive' engine that has had a howling success in the last five or so years, in the 80 - 150 hp class.

 

What line would you like us to follow, initiate something .....

 

I thought it had all been covered.

[bexrbetter]

So there's no volume to speak of. .

I did explicitly mention in my post "once past the current CASA situation".

 

That is entirely true; but plenty of Jab. owners know the story of the 5000 pistons incorrectly machined for the circlip groove, which led to re-machining and a spate of circlip issues.

5000? Where was Jabiru's QC from the first piston? Why wasn't there a Jabiru representative checking them at the end of the line in that factory before they were packed and sent?

 

This is an aircraft engine FGS, Jabiru's fault, period.

 

... and what clowns made this public, you should see what lengths Honda for example goes to to keep their little nasties a secret.

 

Those pistons were sourced in China, Bex, and the perception of QC issues remains in people's minds.

They are Australian pistons, doesn't matter where they are made, the design, specification and, ultimately, quality assurance is Australian.

 

Other manufacturers of literally everything source from countries all over the world, including "those" countries such as India, Mexico, China, Vietnam etc, but manage to keep their standards high. It's all about management, not blaming others. My 11 year old, 300,000KMs Mazda 6 has been and is still just brilliant, completely "Made in China".

 

But Mazda know what they are doing.

 

There is also no paucity of people who know that the Jabiru 'Chinese engine'

Well what else would they think when you can't stop implying that "Chinese" is rubbish every chance you get - an engine that's not even on the market yet. How many times have you said "Chinese" in this thread so far with a negative implication ....

 

Name me one new development of a NON 'simple,air-cooled direct-drive' engine that has had a howling success in the last five or so years, in the 80 - 150 hp class.

Rotax 912IS, 912 IS Sport, 915 IS - In spite of them being hideously overpriced. No others because they are hideously overpriced and why would you when you can choose a proven, bulletproof Rotax at the same price.

 

... but wasn't my point, I said "unless a genuine engine competitor shows up on equal footing". Jabiru will thrive because they are the cheapest, real (sic) aero engine on the market.

 

 

[scsirob]

I did explicitly mention in my post "once past the current CASA situation".

I can't for the life of me imagine that all Jabiru owners who have been stung by the earlier issues and now abandoned engines, wake up in the morning and go "Oh what a beautiful day! Let's fork over another big chunk of change to the lovely people at Jabiru for serial number 1, 2 and 3 of their latest promise!". You may call me cynical.

 

Rotax 912IS, 912 IS Sport, 915 IS - In spite of them being hideously overpriced. No others because they are hideously overpriced and why would you when you can choose a proven, bulletproof Rotax at the same pricet.

According to Rotax themselves, the 915IS (announced mid 2015) will not be available until mid-2017. Bit of a stretch to call that a success. The 912IS have had their share of issues, I'd be interested to find actual sales numbers, compared to the other 912 siblings. But to be fair, a so-so sales season for Rotax would make most other engine manufacturers freak out completely. It's lonely at the top.

 

 

[jetjr]

Jabiru have been purchasing generic parts for some years simply to save costs.

 

Coils, pistons, circlips, valves, pressure senders, gauges etc etc

 

All of which have had QA problems. Pretty hard to hide say dodgy piston circlips as they simply come out then so does gudgeon. To even inspect is a tear down.

 

Valves heads come off. All of which result in engine rebuild or replacement and a seriously upset owner.

 

On top of this is the design changes and fixes, throughbolts, collets, spring washers,

 

There's SB about this stuff yet they path is continued.

 

Now they are forced to find new makers for key parts like cranks, rods and cams.

 

They are betting the future of the brand on the new engine and history indicates repeated QA problems.

 

Chinese can build good stuff for sure Bex but the reputation for shafting partners and shipping non compliant rubbish is well earned.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Chinese can build good stuff for sure Bex but the reputation for shafting partners and shipping non compliant rubbish is well earned.

.... as I have written often warning and offering to help people, but despite the warnings, despite the history, many still go in blind full of themselves thinking they know better - and they will continue to do it.

 

Brumby Signs with Chinese Aviation Giant

 

It does not change one bit that Jabiru accepting one years worth of out of spec pistons is entirely their fault. Further, sending them out to Client's hands is unacceptable, no excuses.

 

Don't buy from China, don't buy cheap crap, do not let greed overcome common sense - Supercheap is not the Messiah and 4" grinders for $19.99 is not a bargain.

 

 

[Oscar]

Bex, Jab. found the fault, re-machined the pistons, and (twice, AFAIK) re-built the engines they had in stock to try to fix the problem: the first time, to replace the pistons with correctly-centred circlip grooves with pistons they had had re-machined to concentricity., the second, to replace the damn circlips that were no longer adequately tensioned on the new, larger diameter grooves. I won't bother to go into the fine details; you can read between the lines in the Jab. service bulletin regarding circlip installation.

 

I can only assume that the contract price for the pistons did NOT include a guarantee of QC.

 

I don't believe Jabiru looked at a sample piston from its Chinese supplier without examining that it met specifications and then blindly ordered 5,000 of them. Jabiru does not have the calibre of measuring equipment that CAMit had: laser-table measurement in a climate-controlled room. Jabiru relied on the QC of its supplier - and that was faulty. CAMit measured EVERY component it made before releasing it to assembly.. That adds a significant cost to the production cycle. Jabiru did not contract CAMit to measure those pistons; they were supplied to CAMit to install.

 

Scale of operation makes economy of non-measurement viable. I believe that Briggs and Stratton simply assemble every engine they produce, run them on a test cycle before releasing them and simply scrap any that d0 not measure up. It does NOT measure every component: cheaper to throw away the duds than worry about ensuring that each part of each engine was good before it was assembled.. Rotax fairly recently mandated a crankshaft replacement for thousands of its 912s.

 

You claim I always bag Chinese manufacture. That shows to me that you don't read all of my posts: I have quite a bit of Chinese-manufactured tools etc. in my workshop, and many of them give good service, but I do NOT expect them to be of the quality of the Metabo, Fein, Festo, older AEG, Stahlwille, Snap-On, Moore and Wright, Mitutoyo, Minimax, Starret, Smart and Brown, Makita, Elu, Robland etc. tools I have. And I accept that I pay two-three-four times for those, than for the Chinese tools I also have. I will happily buy Chinese-manufactured tools to do a specific job and accept that a few of them won't cut the mustard. I buy the expensive stuff to do long-time/high precision service, because I know I will be using them in 10 - 20 years on.. I don't expect a cheap tool to do that duty. For example, I recently bought a Chinese light-duty air-hammer for $35 to drive flush solid rivets, made up the drive tool necessary for the actual job, and if it does the one job I need it to, it will be value for money given that anything for that job from Aircraft Spruce costs over $250. I can't foresee recouping the investment of $250 for a small, one-time job. And - it is doing a fine job so far - a bit crude but with careful attention to use, as good as the 'real thing'..

 

The difference between a $40k engine from Rotax and a $10k engine from the Happy Joy Luck Engune Factory, is at least in real terms: reliability due to QC. And - you need to pick the right Rotax:..

 

Quality is NOT unilaterally geographically centred. The entire UK motor vehicle (including motorcycles) went belly up because they were producing CRAP. Including from Rolls-Royce down. Yet, the UK was at the same time, manufacturing Gardner diesel engines - there were none better from anywhere in the world, and Smart and Brown Lathes, only bettered by Schaublin..

 

When it's good, from China, it's definitely world-class; when it's bad, it's just plain bad. Not 'Chinese' Bad, just, BAD. BMW have produced some vehicles that quite possibly make the Cherry look quite reasonable.

 

HOWEVER: when you are flying over tiger country and the engine plays dead ants, will you be happy to say: 'oh well, it was cheap, mea culpa for buying it?'

 

And that's why CAMit's dedication to quality, would be an investment you would happily have paid, if your nearest and dearest is in the RHS.

 

 

[jetjr]

The bit that irks me is that CAE engine with expensive name parts was the same price as a Jabiru.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

The bit that irks me is that CAE engine with expensive name parts was the same price as a Jabiru.

Well why wouldn't it be, Camit supplied crankcases and other parts, etc, with their profit on top to Jabiru, who rightfully then put their profit on top of that.

 

It's logical that those items would start at a cheaper price direct from Camit having one tier removed. I would suggest there was some agreement that Camit was not to under-cut Jabiru in price, so therefore they value added.

 

 

[jetjr]

Maybe but the point is, the Jabiru engine with lots of cheaper parts ended up the same price to customer. The new version is already being said to be to be similar expected price.

 

Lower grade things sold cheaply (like the $20 grinder) deserves little sympathy for the buyer. Pay the same as a good one and you've a right to be upset.

 

There was never any deals between the two as I understand.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Can someone explain to me what it is with this 'caution' tag that appears ocassionally on posts? What exactly is it supposed to mean or imply?

Yes, I would like to know too. The "creative" tag which was more useful in my opinion, has disappeared.

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Lower grade things sold cheaply (like the $20 grinder) deserves little sympathy for the buyer. .

But as you see throughout every social media, they seek it in droves.

 

If you buy something cheap, fine, your choice, if it breaks just wear it like a Man.

 

 

[facthunter]

There won't be enough landfill for it all eventually. Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

But as you see throughout every social media, they seek it in droves.If you buy something cheap, fine, your choice, if it breaks just wear it like a Man.

I think it was Bell Helmets who used the advertising slogan: 'if you have a $20 head, wear a $20 helmet'.

 

I agree with Bex: you get what you paid for, and if you paid cheaply for something to help you do a specific job efficiently and it does that job, then you have recouped your investment. If you buy say an Ozito 9" circular saw that says on the box: 'for light duty only' and expect to rip hardwood sleepers down with it, then you are a fool.

 

I had a much-loved Metabo variable-speed 125mm angle grinder, that I used almost every damn day, because I do a lot of metalwork. Expensive: over $400 to replace. I never used it as intended (including running a 9" 40-grit sander disc); when I had worn out three armatures and then when I could not get a fourth replacement, I went ballistic on Metabo's Australian distributor's a8se. The Metabo rep. listened to me and said - calmly - 'well sir, it is over 14 years old, and we are only legally required to have spares for five years.'. Exit Stage Right, embarrassed...

 

What has this to do with CAMit? It has to do with the underlying ethical basis of the manufacturer. If an aero engine fails in flight, the consequences could - have - been fatal. 'Safety is our highest Priority' is perhaps the most debased phrase used in recent times by every manufacturer of ANYTHING when a failure results in a fatality. FFS, look at Samsung: washing machines catching fire, phones exploding... Apple: batteries exploding. VW: fatal shutdowns of engines. GM: fatal consequences of a known dodgy ignition switch. Takata: air-bags. Ford: Explorers rolling over, and famously, Pinto's frying their occupants in a rear-ender. Earlier Holden Commodores tearing apart in accidents.. The deaths just from domestic appliances / defective motor vehicles, makes the entire Aviation industry look like a side-show.

 

For many, many companies: 'Safety is Our Highest Priority' is so obviously a monstrous piece of hypocrisy, trotted out when things go pear-shaped. If they are producing say, electric drills - 99.9% of failures do not result in anything more than customer frustration..

 

If you are manufacturing aero engines, you KNOW that a failure may kill people. You can put the usual warnings on the boxes and in the User Manuals: hell, Rotax used to ship 503s and I think 582s with an explicit statement on the carton 'Not for use in Aircraft'.. Let's not kid ourselves: that was NOT intended as a restriction in the interests of safety, it was intended as an 'out' in the case of legal repercussions from failure.

 

CAMit - a very, very 'boutique' manufacturer in terms of its market presence - took its responsibilities to its customers seriously. Its CAE engines had all of the QC and testing and recording done to certification standard.

 

When a CAE engine had a problem - due to the failure of an oil-cooler hose having been used that failed (which is an installation problem,. not an engine problem), CAMit rebuilt that engine for the owner at the parts cost. The failed hose that allowed the oil to be pumped out, was sourced from an Asian supplier from a country I will not name due to Bex's sensitivity to mention of the source.

 

It is oh, so easy to criticise a company for failing to be commercially successful because it placed its ethical considerations ahead of its commercial interest.

 

For those - and Bex - you are one - who take the view that commercial success is the sine qua non of good business: how about you jump off the North Col of the Matterhorn relying on rope that has the best profit ratio to cost? Or would you actually choose the best QUALITY rope available?

 

 

[bexrbetter]

was sourced from an Asian supplier from a country I will not name due to Bex's sensitivity to mention of the source.

Not sensitive at all, I sort through the crap every time I go out to buy something and choose good stuff - because they make quality products at ALL levels and I have that choice. Your constant implication though has been that if it's "Chinese", period, then it's to be seen in a lesser light.

 

I was just remarking today that my medium priced, hand electric drill with auto chuck has seen quite a few holes now, been used almost daily for loads of rivet holes for the last few years for example, but is still kicking along just fine even though I have smoked it up a few times and slipped the chuck plenty.

 

... and note here you have rightfully specified a Chinese "Supplier", not blanketed the country as a whole.

 

Ok, now get your tongue out of your cheek before you bite down on it.

 

 

[JohnC]

Bex and Oscar, I have been following your comments and may I say that you are both correct.

 

We import £100,000’s+ per year of mechanical and electrical equipment from the Far East including Korea, Taiwan and mainly China, this equipment is very good quality, has a five year UK warranty and the failure rate is less than 1% (excluding installer issues). However this equipment is made for big name companies - Mitsubishi, Samsung, LG, Toshiba etc. These companies have a worldwide brand name and reputation to protect hence the high quality as a direct result of good quality control procedures. We have tried non big brand name equipment from China and I can only describe this as absolute rubbish and based on our experiences “never again”, it may be cheap to buy but not cost effective or commercially viable due to the high failure rates and high dead-on-arrival rate.

 

If we take a look at history when I was a lad anything from Japan was considered cheap crap, didn’t matter who made it. Now Japan is a world leader in just about everything automotive, electrical, electronic, etc, etc. and yet they now manufacture very little in Japan – China (and others) is simply cheap labour.

 

This brings me to the new Jabiru engine from China; it may be really good unfortunately it may be really, really bad. I will not take the chance on an engine from China with a Jabiru badge on it simply because I have no faith in Jabirus’ quality control; not knocking Jabiru they are simply not a big enough player in the world market of out-sourced manufacturing to ensure high quality control.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

JohnC, you're quite right re re your comments on Japan, the originators of modern day quality. However, it's not 'control' that's important in the scheme of things. It's ASSURANCE. Q.C. comes after the product has been made, Q.A. comes before. Large companies pay attention to how their suppliers will assure that they follow the design to the 'nth' degree. No matter where or in what country the manufacture actually takes place. I worked 20 years for Tenneco's Walker Muffler division and was involved in the change from Q.C. to Q.A.. A long and tedious path to be sure. I won't go into details but, when it's set up correctly, even the Chinese have to follow the rules or face HUGE consequences. It does, however, take a lot of cash to set it up and I too, doubt that Jabiru are financially up to it or have the know-how to do it.

 

 

[kasper]

JohnC, you're quite right re re your comments on Japan, the originators of modern day quality. However, it's not 'control' that's important in the scheme of things. It's ASSURANCE. Q.C. comes after the product has been made, Q.A. comes before. Large companies pay attention to how their suppliers will assure that they follow the design to the 'nth' degree. No matter where or in what country the manufacture actually takes place. I worked 20 years for Tenneco's Walker Muffler division and was involved in the change from Q.C. to Q.A.. A long and tedious path to be sure. I won't go into details but, when it's set up correctly, even the Chinese have to follow the rules or face HUGE consequences. It does, however, take a lot of cash to set it up and I too, doubt that Jabiru are financially up to it or have the know-how to do it.

Indeed. To get and maintain UK CAA manufacturer status on the factory in Kent there are both QC and QA processes that MUST be adhered to in all stages of anyone working in that factory ... and the QC/QA mistress was not a woman to be messed with ... and the 'cost' in terms of personnel was 1 person for QC/QA for the three people in the factory ... its a heavy overhead to maintain but the processes made life very controlled and quite traceable ... but it did end up with paperwork out the wahzoo ... but you could trace any nut and bolt on any airframe back to the purchase and the certification that it as a nut or bolt met the specs. Or if you took a manufactured component from stores (or added one to stores) you could trace its materials to source and the personnel who manufactured and checked it to spec.

 

 

[facthunter]

If you market someone else's product under your name you take responsibility for it. If you fit a suppliers product (like a starter motor, battery or tyres, for example) that supplier make have separate warrantee responsibilities in their own right. A brand name should mean something that you can trust. There's plenty of real crap out there. I lot wouldn't know the difference, (or don't care) and just buy the cheapest. If you do that all the time you deserve problems. What's the point of some manufacturer doing the right thing if no extra sales result? Nev

 

 

[Oscar]

Indeed. To get and maintain UK CAA manufacturer status on the factory in Kent there are both QC and QA processes that MUST be adhered to in all stages of anyone working in that factory ... and the QC/QA mistress was not a woman to be messed with ... and the 'cost' in terms of personnel was 1 person for QC/QA for the three people in the factory ... its a heavy overhead to maintain but the processes made life very controlled and quite traceable ... but it did end up with paperwork out the wahzoo ... but you could trace any nut and bolt on any airframe back to the purchase and the certification that it as a nut or bolt met the specs. Or if you took a manufactured component from stores (or added one to stores) you could trace its materials to source and the personnel who manufactured and checked it to spec.

This is a MOST important and cogent point (my bolding). BOTH Jabiru AND CAMit hold (or for CAMit, held) Production Certificates issued by CASA, in their own right as companies. While CAMit operated purely as a contractor to Jabiru, it was not required to hold its own Production Certificate: Jabiru had the sole responsibility for its engines. However, when CAMit started production of parts and engines in its own right, it required a Production Certificate in its own right.

 

Several years ago now, the Jabiru N.A. dealer made a public comment that it was entirely CAMit's responsibility for the quality of Jabiru engines. This was entirely incorrect, and CAMit came out with perhaps the first public statement ( as far as I can remember) of the facts as to where its responsibility - and for that matter, control - of the QA/QC issues, lay. It was a detailed response and pointed out a number of components for which it had NO responsibility, including pistons, valves and valve train components: it was required to use, under operation to Jabiru's Production Certificate, components supplied to it BY Jabiru for the assembly of engines.

 

In the case of raw materials - for example, the 4140 steel used in crankshafts, cams, rocker gear, or the billet alloy used for crankcases, heads etc. that CAMit produced, the material had to be sourced from companies that had 'Release Grade' QA/QC of their own. You don't get that from your local OneSteel store. You have to buy in quantities dictated by the manufacturer. There are some suppliers that deal in smaller quantities - e.g. in Australia, Performance Metals is one that will sell 'cut' quantities of Release Grade material complete with the requisite Release Certificate. Aviall ( a Boeing company) is another for aerospace manufactured components. They have to charge for the paperwork associated with selling those with Release Certificates - and it isn't cheap.

 

For example: I have some Blackhawk rotor-blade connecting bolts, ex- BAE. MS20008-18. I think, Grade 13 quality, in Release Grade. They are 1/2" diameter, fine thread, just less than 2" in length. They are available in single quantity from a number of Aerospace suppliers, at around $250 a pop..yes, that is Two Hundred and Fifty $$. With a properly-designed link, you could lift a fully-laden B-double with one of them. Bought Release Grade Cherrymax rivets lately? 1/8" x 1/4" pull, about $2.25 each. You can buy a plastic box of 100 3.2mm x 6mm pull pop rivets from Bunnings et al for about $7.

 

As a Manufacturer, you have to record not just the details of the material used, but in which product you have used them - and keep those records safe. If a Jabiru crankshaft - for example - fails through a metallurgical fault (I don't believe any have), then it is possible for Jabiru (through CAMit's records, of which presumably Jabiru has a copy) to identify ALL the crankshafts produced from that batch of material, which engines they were installed in, and initiate a recall.

 

We see the same basic control mechanisms in operation every day, when there is for example, a recall on a batch of packaged small goods sold by a Woolies or Coles. That is QC in action. As a society, we not only EXPECT, but DEMAND, that level of protection. I have no problem with that: I will be bloody annoyed if the packet of sausages I buy from a supermarket contains fragments of glass that kill me.

 

But: that packet of sausages was probably one of many thousand sold nationally every damn day. And, it contained a (probably disgusting, though I don't want to know) melee of ingredients, most of which had NOT been subject to QC inspection.

 

Now, think about the situation of an aircraft, or aircraft engine, manufacturer with a production run on the hundreds, or perhaps low thousands, over maybe 25 years. With literally hundreds of components - ALL of which had to be measured, recorded.

 

Have you ever looked closely at your Jabiru (or other) engine? You will find inscribed marks identifying a lot of the major components: the crankcase, the shaft, each head etc. I will guarantee that I can take a head off my engine and it can be traced back to the batch of material from which it was made - and from there, it can be traced forwards to any engine that had a head from that batch incorporated. That is the QC that you get from the requirements placed on the manufacturer.

 

As an example of how this works: when Rotax issued SB's on its crankshafts, it identified the engine serial numbers affected. That was no wild guess - it was a result of the recording of materials, processing etc. And it affected thousands of engines.

 

The QC back-up that you fly behind, every flight, is not accidental - it is mandated. And the cost of that level of protection has to be included in the manufacturer's costs of production. The requirements of that apply to every manufacturer. CAMit, with some 160 CAE-badged engines produced, had to meet the same standards as Rotax, with over 50,000 (aero) engines produced..And CAMit had to be able to prove the same QA /QC for engine #1.