Savannah John just landed.... overheated

[jaybee258]

Hi Guys

 

I'm new to this web site and it seems like a source of fascinating reading and useful information. I ended up here because I was trolling the internet for ideas for our Savannah. Being joint owned, it is not that easy to just dive in and make improvements to the plane, but this one has been bothering me for a while. We have a Jab 2200 powered Savannah VG and it has always had a tendency to overheat, as I think most of them do. I think the problem can be solved, but it is probably not the best place to post this question in this forum, so I will do that too elsewhere.

 

The welcome bit.. I have shared ownership of a Jab 2200 powered Savannah VG 450kg microlight. Based in the UK in Yorkshire. We bought it at 11 hrs on the clock, it is now 500 with no major problems. Anybody else with a Savannah in the UK?

 

I have been qualified about 4 years now and touched Scotland, Cornwall, Scillys, Lundy and a couple of trips to France and the Alps.... I don't do bacon buttie runs. I don't do big airfields and radio fuss. Blind calls are my limit

 

I love the guy who is building a Savannah in his lounge. Well done that man, and it is a flat too!

 

Savannah John

 

 

[IBob]

Hi John and welcome. I'm a relative newbie here, but the sun comes up in NZ before Oz, so I'm first off the blocks.

 

I'm currently building a Savannah S, and this site is a goldmine of information, pics and live help.

 

You will find a huge amount of solid user info on Jab engines here too.

 

You certainly sound like you travel.......you'll fit right in....)

 

 

[DrZoos]

 

Have you read the info on airflow for the jab engines on the jabiru site?

 

http://www.jabiruna.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Cooling_Flow_Tips.pdf

 

 

[jaybee258]

Thanks DrZoos

 

Lots of interesting stuff there. I will measure air pressure each side of the oil cooler to see if there is any flow of air. Also air temperatures at the same points. I do not think there are many Jab 2200s in Savannahs to learn from

 

Good thoughts

 

I need to contact the BMAA too to see if there are any Mods approved to improve oil cooling

 

 

[facthunter]

Jabiru also have a few references to over propping motors, advising against it. Nev

 

 

[jaybee258]

Hi John and welcome. I'm a relative newbie here, but the sun comes up in NZ before Oz, so I'm first off the blocks.I'm currently building a Savannah S, and this site is a goldmine of information, pics and live help.

You will find a huge amount of solid user info on Jab engines here too.

 

You certainly sound like you travel.......you'll fit right in....)

Thanks IBob. I enjoyed reading about your build. It sounds a massive job. Keep up the good work

 

 

[eightyknots]

Hi John,

 

Welcome to the forum. There's a wealth of information in here! ....especially Savannah related.

 

 

[rmorton]

welcome John, you would be welcome to call in on your way to the alps. Where in Yorkshire are you based? Hoping to get my Savannah kit before the end of the year and may well end up building most of it in the house and not the garage as originally planned. Looking forward to seeing the improvements you make and hope you find what you need for the cooling problem.

 

 

[jaybee258]

welcome John, you would be welcome to call in on your way to the alps. Where in Yorkshire are you based? Hoping to get my Savannah kit before the end of the year and may well end up building most of it in the house and not the garage as originally planned. Looking forward to seeing the improvements you make and hope you find what you need for the cooling problem.

Thanks. I am at Oxenhope near Keighley. Where are you based?

Sadly flying to France is getting harder. No more Abbeville with its blind calls and customs, and no transponder requirements

 

 

[rmorton]

Thanks. I am at Oxenhope near Keighley. Where are you based?Sadly flying to France is getting harder. No more Abbeville with its blind calls and customs, and no transponder requirements

I am near to Geneva in the Pays de Gex. I was hoping one day to fly to the UK and the club is keen to organise it, so we will have to see. I spent most of my formative years in Doncaster (I know its not always considered proper Yorkshire) Lovely part of the world round you.

Are you happy with the Savannah? What about the Jabiru? I like the idea of the Jab, but round here I would be banished for such a choice. I cant wait to get started and have so far lined up all I need apart from the kit. I know I am doing things back to front but circumstances and exchange rates dictate.

 

 

[jaybee258]

I am near to Geneva in the Pays de Gex. I was hoping one day to fly to the UK and the club is keen to organise it, so we will have to see. I spent most of my formative years in Doncaster (I know its not always considered proper Yorkshire) Lovely part of the world round you.Are you happy with the Savannah? What about the Jabiru? I like the idea of the Jab, but round here I would be banished for such a choice. I cant wait to get started and have so far lined up all I need apart from the kit. I know I am doing things back to front but circumstances and exchange rates dictate.

You are so lucky living so near to the Apls. I love those altiports, and Corier is my fav. The Savannah is so good for that sort of stuff and is so responsive that it is hard to get things wrong. I flew over from the UK with a couple of flexis, so we were pretty slow at 70mph. A nice easy cruising speed at 10 litres per hour. I guess the North of England is a pretty good part of the world to fly too, with the lake District, Snowdonia, Pennines and lots of coast line on our doorstep to explore.

 

I love the Savannah. It is like a real traditional aeroplane with all that aluminium and rivets. It is so easy to fly but a bit more power would be nice and a good safety reserve, particularly near mountains. With our eco-prop, the Jab only revs to 2800rpm, and that is not the full 85hp. More revs on a different prop would give more power and more fuel consumption. The Jab has done 500 hours in 4 years now and has been pretty faultless apart from the tendancy to overheat on long climbs ( eg for crossing the channel, and circumnavigating Mount Blanc, or climbing up to Alp dHuez) . I understand that Camitt, the subcontractor for Jabiru who make the engine have gone bust. So there will be no more Jab 2200 engines

 

You are very brave starting to build a Savannah. It looks a lot of work, but a very nicely made kit. Hope you get it flying soon. Ideally, you need to be able to have access to a completed one to look over from time to time. Big help

 

 

[rankamateur]

Hoping to get my Savannah kit before the end of the year and may well end up building most of it in the house and not the garage as originally planned.

I highly recommend the ground floor. Skee built on a higher level, see #290 here And a Savannah S in Sweden.. I used my Mum's lounge room which was quite comfortable.

 

 

[rmorton]

I have a few options but favourite the playroom for wings empanage etc and due to size of doors either the living room or garage for the fuselage ......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rmorton]

My parents are in Scarborough and I would love to fly over that part of the country, the moors must quite a sight from above.

 

I am not really brave just stupid and stubborn, built my own house so figured that a plane was the next logical step, or a kit car, but as aviation has been a passion since before I can remember the plane won.

 

I am lucky in that the ICP factory is only 3 hours drive away so spares and advice are not too far. I went there a few months back and stayed in a wonderful old world hotel and was treated to a fly-in (I put some photos in the media section) and then the following day a tour of the factory. ICP are a genuine small family firm that really care about what they make and are very active in promoting aviation. I have an engine lined up which is currently being reconditioned. Radio and other avionics (such that they are) are almost decided. Colours and finishings are still a thorn in my side and probably always will be. Last but not least I have to prepare the house for the onslaught, the garge is almost ready just need to empty it of junk and stick a few more tiles down.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Colours and finishings are still a thorn in my side and probably always will be.

Avoid dark colours on the wing leading edge, what ever else you choose. When parked in the sun they suck in nasty dents as they heat up. Crease a Coke can a few times and the result isn't pretty.

 

 

[rmorton]

I originally I wanted dark blue everywhere but I was warned about the wrinkly skin problem and changed to white. I started another thread on the subject to see if I a can find other inspiration. It's the bit i am least looking forward to but the part that will probably give the most pleasure if I get it right

 

 

[IBob]

I am on a similar trip with the paint:

 

Putting aside the many paint system options, what I see is that both the paint colour and pattern can make a huge difference to the appearance of the finished aircraft (just as it does with cars and other items). And there is so much 'work' in the whole project, I'd hate to arrive at the other end and find I didn't much like the result!

 

Originally I was drawn to the yellow paint job (you see it on Foxbats, and I think it looks pretty good), but I also like the idea of some anonymity in the bush flying here, so now I am heading down the 'white and something' track, (for which reason, I am using a white primer during construction).

 

And I am periodically looking at all the many pics of Savannahs online, and when I see a paint job I like the look of, I grab a copy of it.

 

As for the painting itself, originally I was quite nervous of the idea, but using the gun for the priming has helped me learn some basics, and I will do my own painting when I get to that point, with guidance and a better gun from a friend.

 

And to make that easier for myself, I will make stands or jigs to turn and position the aircraft parts for painting. Including, I think, the fuselage.

 

Just down the road from ICP? You are well placed!

 

 

[rmorton]

I am on a similar trip with the paint:Putting aside the many paint system options, what I see is that both the paint colour and pattern can make a huge difference to the appearance of the finished aircraft (just as it does with cars and other items). And there is so much 'work' in the whole project, I'd hate to arrive at the other end and find I didn't much like the result!

Originally I was drawn to the yellow paint job (you see it on Foxbats, and I think it looks pretty good), but I also like the idea of some anonymity in the bush flying here, so now I am heading down the 'white and something' track, (for which reason, I am using a white primer during construction).

 

And I am periodically looking at all the many pics of Savannahs online, and when I see a paint job I like the look of, I grab a copy of it.

 

As for the painting itself, originally I was quite nervous of the idea, but using the gun for the priming has helped me learn some basics, and I will do my own painting when I get to that point, with guidance and a better gun from a friend.

 

And to make that easier for myself, I will make stands or jigs to turn and position the aircraft parts for painting. Including, I think, the fuselage.

 

Just down the road from ICP? You are well placed!

Indeed all be it a three hour drive the reception in Italy is wonderful, very helpful great food and lovely scenery, what more could you ask? You certainly have covered most of my most worrying thoughts there. When I was at ICP over the summer I asked about painting and they advised an epoxy primer for the interior (or nothing if you weren't in an agressive environment) and a similar primer topcoat for the external. As for colours they strongly recommend avoiding yellow as it has a heavy pigment and needs to go on thick to ensure an opaque finish.

I was surprised that you chose a white primer under white finish as I thought a light grey would help you to see that you have covered the undercoat, but I am a complete novice when it comes to paint. What type of spray gun are you using? HVLP seems to be recommended for water based paints but I cant tell if you need a special compressor or not. Jus tso much to learn.....

 

 

[IBob]

I am a complete novice too, believe me, and certainly not in a position to make any recommendations.

 

You raise a good point about white over white: the downside is I will have to be careful I am covering properly, the upside (perhaps) is that it will require less paint to cover? I think it will help to rotate the parts, as noted, also very good light is important. I am fortunate that I built the shed to build the aircraft, and when I am ready one whole side will be my spray bay: not that I planned that, but it looks as though it will work well. That gives me plenty of room and light, and the other side, curtained off, for what is not being sprayed.

 

My choice of paint is low-tech: I am not looking for a concourse finish, I am looking to fly my a** off, and that means getting the job done!

 

I am using Wattyl super etch primer (which will get me mixed reviews here, no doubt!) And I will then go on to a Wattyl epoxy finish.

 

If I were starting again, I think I would be using the grey Wattyl primer for all the internal stuff: the white seems to be a quite different composition, is very thin, and I have gone through a lot of it getting coverage.

 

Good luck with working out your chosen system: my experience so far is that it is an area with a lot of varied and often strongly held views! Much depends on what your flying environment will be (from a corrosion point of view), and whether you feel you are trying to protect the aircraft for the next 10 years, or the next 50?

 

 

[eightyknots]

Avoid dark colours on the wing leading edge, what ever else you choose. When parked in the sun they suck in nasty dents as they heat up. Crease a Coke can a few times and the result isn't pretty.

Good advice; the effect of a dark colour on the LE never occurred to me!

 

 

[rankamateur]

I originally I wanted dark blue everywhere but I was warned about the wrinkly skin problem and changed to white.

Painting is the part of the build that really stalls the momentum. Less so if you do your own painting for sure but Guy took five months to get all his parts painted. Reg, ever the optimist advised me to avoid my chosen metallic green in favour of White because it will be easier to match when I am doing repairs.

 

 

[rmorton]

Painting is the part of the build that really stalls the momentum. Less so if you do your own painting for sure but Guy took five months to get all his parts painted. Reg, ever the optimist advised me to avoid my chosen metallic green in favour of White because it will be easier to match when I am doing repairs.

I would love to do a metallic finish but the repair and touch up process with solid colours is so much easier.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I would love to do a metallic finish but the repair and touch up process with solid colours is so much easier.

Reg used a mono metallic 2 pack maroon paint on his last plane, it wasn't too bad to match, but the multi layer metallic auto paints are too heavy to start with because they take about 6 coats but the match depends on laying the metallic layer on the same way that the original painter did. Even if you did it yourself, who would remember by the time it mattered.

 

 

[IBob]

Indeed all be it a three hour drive the reception in Italy is wonderful, very helpful great food and lovely scenery, what more could you ask? You certainly have covered most of my most worrying thoughts there. When I was at ICP over the summer I asked about painting and they advised an epoxy primer for the interior (or nothing if you weren't in an agressive environment) and a similar primer topcoat for the external. As for colours they strongly recommend avoiding yellow as it has a heavy pigment and needs to go on thick to ensure an opaque finish.I was surprised that you chose a white primer under white finish as I thought a light grey would help you to see that you have covered the undercoat, but I am a complete novice when it comes to paint. What type of spray gun are you using? HVLP seems to be recommended for water based paints but I cant tell if you need a special compressor or not. Jus tso much to learn.....

Sorry, I missed your question: yes I have a (cheap) HVLP gun and it works okay, now that I've started to understand how to set it up. Cup size (where the paint goes) is 600ml. These run at about 40 to 45 PSI or 3bar, so no special compressor needed. It calls for 100L/Minute minimum air.

 

I bought a Stanley compressor, 190L/Minute, 2200W, 50litre tank and have been very happy with that. Many of the lower end compressors are direct drive, and can be horribly noisy: part of the reason I opted for the Stanley is that it is belt drive, and so much quieter. And at this size, the compressor only cycles on occasionally during riveting, which I like very much.

 

As mentioned, when it comes to finishing coats, I will be getting help and advice, plus loan of a better gun. We amateurs need all the help we can get!

 

Over here, there are also two distinct types of air line couplings or fittings, not interchangeable, and I managed to end up with a mix initially.

 

As for weight of paint: I find it difficult to get a clear idea of this. Online numbers seems to vary greatly. And when it comes to the relative weight of different colours, while I can certainly see that with some colours more paint may be used to get coverage, and the pigments themselves will have weight, I would dearly love some idea of just how much difference it makes: part of my work involves looking at plant operation data, and to me a trend is not much use unless I know how big it is.

 

 

[rmorton]

I am going to have a look at a Sealey HVLP gun tomorrow with a view to using to learn on hopefully it will be good enough for the primer at least.

 

I am worried about the volume of air my compressor can produce it is a twin piston direct drive Mcfee no idea what model it is though. We only have one size of quick fitting so that should be ok. What internal diameter hose line did you use? My whole setup is based on 6mm.

 

ICP mrentioned the yellow because of the amount needed to get an opaque finish but I think a lot is also to do with the skill of the sprayer. I cant remember how much extra weight she mentioned but I think it was 5 or 10 kg