pprune report: jab engine failure Oct 28th

[turboplanner]

Thanks Turboplanner, I couldn't find any reference on the website apart from the Engine limitation relief report. This team on the link, who do you suggest it the appropriate person to contact re the Jabiru engine history? CASA’s role in sport aviation | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

I'd suggest you try Lee Ungermann, or Mick Poole, but I would Not recommend the stuff you posted earlier.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

I'd suggest you try Lee Ungermann, or Mick Poole, but I would Not recommend the stuff you posted earlier.

Thanks for the info. I will start by getting the data.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Thanks for the info. I will start by getting the data.

I hasten to add that from the outside, and as a manufacturer in Australia, I would be kicking the door down if I had the treatment Jabiru appeared to be given by a government regulator. I'm sure there's another side to this story.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Since your posts are most likely being read by a number of people within CASA, I'd suggest the questions come before the inflammatory comments.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Since your posts are most likely being read by a number of people within CASA, I'd suggest the questions come before the inflammatory comments.

Normally my default position, but in this case the rant got me to the source with any luck. Thanks

 

 

[turboplanner]

Normally my default position, but in this case the rant got me to the source with any luck. Thanks

You mean the first and second names on your link?

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

You mean the first and second names on your link?

I've sent a letter to Lee at Sports Aviation.

 

 

[frank marriott]

I've sent a letter to Lee at Sports Aviation.

If you are interested in "facts" and not BS, you would not involve Ungermann or Poole. But if you want a politician type answers go there. I don't know who advised you to go there but obviously someone with a slanted view on the world.

 

 

[turboplanner]

If you are interested in "facts" and not BS, you would not involve Ungermann or Poole. But if you want a politician type answers go there. I don't know who advised you to go there but obviously someone with a slanted view on the world.

He's looking for facts, not adjectives.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

He's looking for facts, not adjectives.

It is pretty easy to get heated in such a debate. As a sideline I am the honorary secretary of an industry association and my dealings with government agencies have generally been pretty good. This Jab/CASA episode for me is an aberration as far as past experience is concerned. My point is.... If an agency is going to yank the mat out from under a company or an industry sector, they better have a good process and explanation in place along with who and why. If the aforementioned is there with supporting data that reasonably justifies the actions, I will shut the hell up.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

PS ... The truth may not be convenient or easy to find but it will be full of human factors

 

 

[frank marriott]

Sorry Frankus, I didn't realise who you were in conversation with. I haven't seen post by that particular member for a long time (my election). Forget I even mentioned anything.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Sorry Frankus, I didn't realise who you were in conversation with. I haven't seen post by that particular member for a long time (my election). Forget I even mentioned anything.

It is notable how much aggro among sections of the RAA and GA community this subject provokes. I thought it was just me being reactive but the only subject that starts people up more than this is Avmed....... Whops I said it! Having said that, I've been watching the CASA YouTube videos and they are a good effort.

PS: A frank and earnest discussion may be possible.

 

 

[Camel]

It is pretty easy to get heated in such a debate. As a sideline I am the honorary secretary of an industry association and my dealings with government agencies have generally been pretty good. This Jab/CASA episode for me is an aberration as far as past experience is concerned. My point is.... If an agency is going to yank the mat out from under a company or an industry sector, they better have a good process and explanation in place along with who and why. If the aforementioned is there with supporting data that reasonably justifies the actions, I will shut the hell up.

Hi, I'm in possession of lots of letters and I was the person who got the FOI from Casa, my information has been shared with RAA and other Interested parties including people with special interest, I have also letters from other government agencies where complaints were lodged. I can share info with you if you can do something of a positive action in support of the Australian aviation industry before it is COMPLETELY FINISHED ! If you can't or won't do anything then I will not bother as I'm sick of what Casa and government has done.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Gee Frank, what a shock if he gets provable facts from CASA.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Gee Frank, what a shock if he gets provable facts from CASA.

I think the best way to address this and learn something that is useful for all stakeholders going forward, is to start with a time line of events. A report should start with a background to the bigger picture, followed by a neutral time sequence of events, all sourced from transparent data sources. No doubt all the contributors to the event stream didn't start off at war. With all the data in a line, somewhere along that line it will start taking a left hand turn. I think there's some lessons here once this is all laid out and I'm also not assuming that Jabiru are the victims and CASA are the sons of Satan. I think that the process was not handled and executed well by CASA or Jabiru, as I'm sure the ban didn't just fall from the sky without a back story. However I could be wrong.

 

Anything that anyone wants to contribute is welcome but facts and hard copy info is more helpful than opinions. Aevent stream is more helpful than a witch hunt. Personality bashing is too easy and in the end it turns into trench warfare. All the same, this will probably revolve around a few personalities in the end.

 

My email address is [email protected] if anyone wants to email me assuming this is ok with the site administrator.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Frank I feel that admin will have no objection as this story has to have an ending the amount off crapp and corruption that surrounds the whole saga is un believeable Neil

 

 

[jetjr]

Does everyone realise the entire limitations still apply to engines that haven't been upgraded to latest list of Jabiru upgrades, even those now admitted to be non relevant.

 

Including all those aircraft in the experimental sectors where all other modifications are OK.

 

This problem hasn't gone away for many, Id suggest a whole lot now ignoring it.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Does everyone realise the entire limitations still apply to engines that haven't been upgraded to latest list of Jabiru upgrades, even those now admitted to be non relevant.Including all those aircraft in the experimental sectors where all other modifications are OK

This problem hasn't gone away for many, I'd suggest a whole lot now ignoring it.

Sorry for the long reply but I eventually get to the punch line

 

I believe this required a systematic resolution without fear or favor on the part of the community affected by the Jabiru ban. We can be as objective and non witch hunt or department bashing as we like but is not going to prevent this from happening again. Since the initial thread comment from me, I have had an avalanche of emails and in a cursory view across the board, there are a number of big picture common denominators. There are no clean skins in this and Jabiru are not without a healthy dose of contribution to their problem. I suppose that's life. However if this is the way the department deals with the aviation community as a default position, I would be really concerned if I made my living in that industry or ran an enterprise. In my day gig industry, the industry body I am a board member of deals with the ACMA and ERAC regarding safety and compliance issues. Compared to the landscape I have seen so far with aviation.... the difference is night and day.

 

So I will get to the point that will undercut the Jab engines and everything else I am seeing.

 

The GA aviation industry is a disparate assortment of groups, interests, enterprises and individuals. There is a collection of associations that represent small sectors and push their own barrows to address whatever squeaky wheel is annoying them. A government department having do deal with that rabble is going to get frustrated and chart their own course. In the presence of groups with contrary motivations and no clear industry cohesion, any guesses what we'll get? That's what we have now.

 

Yes we can bang on about Jabiru (and I will given a complete report), this will not solve the big and more landscape issues of the decline of the industry.

 

The only long term viable answer is to have a real industry Peak Body. Governments and departments have to listen to them or suffer a PR flogging naming names and clarifying issues in the popular media. Though with an effective Peak Body, it generally doesn't get to that because things get resolved around a table.

 

We have an opportunity now to create a real industry Peak Body comprising all the stake holders of GA/Training/RAA/Sport and agricultural aviation and also the manufacturing sector. The existing associations will need to be on board. If this is done with the participation from the groups and a well considered association constitution, board, policy and a hit list of things to do, we will get somewhere.

 

Did I hear someone say "Too hard, it will fragment into special interests and politics?" That is not a foregone conclusion. I have seen it done and participated in the creation of functional industry body made up of people who initially didn't like each other at all. It was a get together or face a collapse of a vital section of the industry due to a massive government screw up. (The spectrum sell off). Their mutual interest overrode the industry politics.

 

In the end, we had the department with us and now have a great relationship what works for everybody. As for the board, they all now get on well, so it can be done.

 

So that's it - form a Peak Body. If we don't, sports and recreational aviation manufacturing will go, the costs will go up, education will decline or stagnate into a sausage factory for foreign students etc. etc. Also this is not a good outcome for CASA either.

 

I am going to float this around every communication hub I can find. Any suggestions?

 

Frankus [email protected]

 

So..... Put a peak body together or expect more of the same.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Greate mate, I was wondering what the agenda was.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

Greate mate, I was wondering what the agenda was.

If this is done well it would improve the industry and also be functional to work cooperatively with the government and the department. I can already hear the critics.

 

 

[terryc]

If this is done well it would improve the industry and also be functional to work cooperatively with the government and the department. I can already hear the critics.

Best idea I have heard all year and the best site to use to promote and develope it as well.

 

 

[Frankus1aust]

I am writing to the various organisations and any suggestions/email addresses will be welcome. I'm still following up on the Jab timeline but in reality, it is a side show and just one element to the big picture of reinvigorating the industry. All comments welcome including the critical ones. A group with no dissenters will eventually all make the same mistake.

 

 

[dsam]

I am writing to the various organisations and any suggestions/email addresses will be welcome. I'm still following up on the Jab timeline but in reality, it is a side show and just one element to the big picture of reinvigorating the industry. All comments welcome including the critical ones. A group with no dissenters will eventually all make the same mistake.

I think the idea of a peak body has a lot going for it, if it achieves the aims you suggest. I am concerned, however, that such a body could be too easily dominated by the narrow interests of the most wealthy players (eg. Qantas, Virgin, etc,) and the other less wealthy interests get "left behind" in negotiations with the regulators, authorities, ministers, etc...

 

If the wealthy can simply buy influence (and perhaps that is already the case), then the broader interests go unattended.

 

There would need to be some levelling of the playing field, in the composition & direction of the proposed peak body. I'm not too sure how that might be accomplished. Suggestions, anyone?

 

 

[kgwilson]

The first objective of a peak body IMHO is to lobby for a complete overhaul of Aviation legislation. Only with legislative reform will there be any meaningful change in CASA. The system needs to be legislated to promote the industry and aviation not just safety alone.The calls for CASA to adopt the NZ CAA style system, itself modeled on the US FAA system were simply fobbed off with a comment "Can't be done. our legislation is different". Once there is legislative reform the process of changing the ingrained culture within the regulator can begin. It is obvious that changing directors has no influence at all.