Admin Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 John, and others who feel the same...I wonder, and it is only just that, nothing more...I am trying to figure out how we as recreational aviators have become more of a psuedo GA? I mean we can still fly our rag and tube, we can still fly at 500ft over non built up areas, it is still not mandatory to have a radio although advisable, we can still do our own maintenance and the only thing I think that is different is that we now have to have a PLB when flying further than 25nm. I am just asking this for my own knowledge on what has really changed...not disagreeing or anything just sitting back and asking an overall question 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 It happens, if the powers want it to and have an agenda and all of a sudden your show has been hijacked and it's morphed into something quite different. This sort of thing happens all the time in associations and clubs. Even NRMA and RACV. Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 This new organisation is going to be "more GA" than RAA. Until they disclose more I can only go on what they say on their Facebook page. The intention appears to be the lower end of GA, <1,500 or 7,500kg including helicopters with vague references to ultralights. I doubt they can register anything that CASA or RAA have declined to register. There is a niche market for the minimum aircraft category (mostly 95-10) and their pilots to re-form the old AUF and approach CASA for approval. There's about 200 95-10's left on the RAA register (that figure is out of date). I would suggest the easiest, cheapest way to do this is to not offer training (just recognise the RAA certificate and BFR), little technical (only accept aircraft already accepted on the RAA register), no magazine and all correspondence by electronic means (voting, info, payment), no pilot insurance and staffed by volunteers. The Ops manual can then limit usage to what they want to be restricted to - height, distance, etc. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest john Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 John, and others who feel the same...I wonder, and it is only just that, nothing more...I am trying to figure out how we as recreational aviators have become more of a psuedo GA? I mean we can still fly our rag and tube, we can still fly at 500ft over non built up areas, it is still not mandatory to have a radio although advisable, we can still do our own maintenance and the only thing I think that is different is that we now have to have a PLB when flying further than 25nm.I am just asking this for my own knowledge on what has really changed...not disagreeing or anything just sitting back and asking an overall question Ian, the demise of GA & RAA over the past years & even to this present day is as direct result of the DICTATORIAL CULTURE that exists & has always existed within the Australian Aviation Regulator. Until such time as this draconian culture changes (which is unlikely to be within the near future), GA & recreational aviation across the board will always be going from bad to worse. Some of us old aviators still remember the days when Dick Smith who was once the Director of CASA resigned this position simply because he realised that he was" CONTINUALLY HITTING HIS HEAD AGAINST A BRICK WALL " when he was genuinely trying to bring much needed reforms across the board in aviation. Boyd Munro was another great genuine aviator & Weekend Warrior who was trying desperately to introduce genuine aviation reform, but in the end even with his stamina he realised he was "flogging a dead horse". Since CASA always dictates how high RAA has to jump, RAA will always have to go "cap in hand" to CASA & ask them how high they require RAA to jump. Everything in aviation has an ending & all one can predict is that RAA is one day closer to self destruction than yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 our mandate is to give our customers the best service for their money with a very strong emphasis on safety and compliance. Rick In my reading of this forum for a time one of the biggest complaints is about increased safety and compliance and they are some of the people wanting a change of organisations. our 2 year subscription, at this time, it will be $55 incl GST Rick Interesting to note the "at this time" for the $55 fee As for being a Company and employees and directors being in the position to receive a wage or recompense for their investment, I would hazard a guess and say that not too many people are going to work for nothing, Rick Interesting considering the above 2 year fee structure, lets assume for a moment that half (1/2) of the quoted ten thousand (10,000) members of RAAus are not happy with the organisation (I don't think that's the case) but lets play the game and approximately 30,000 GA pilots in Australia, if you got half of each group that would give you 20,000 clients at $27.50 per year or $550,000 per year income (unless there is a pay per item fee on top of the $55) that's not much to pay people with considering you have 4 or 5 directors (I think this is what I have previously read) most directors (and I am one) expect $200+ per year, CEO's think they are worth more than this in most cases. This doesn't leave much in the kitty for safety management systems, QA, all the relevant manuals, the day to day running of the organisation and employees haven't been paid yet. I have always applauded people for having a go and I hope it works for you and if it does it will also work for a lot of other people. I have no issue with RAAus at this stage (them in combination with GA let's me do everything I want), they have a few minor issues to clean up but that will happen in time. I believe the fee structure for RAAus is too low and this is what is causing a few problems with cash flow, try joining a golf club that allows you access across Australia and see how much change you get out of $1000 (that's if you can find one that allows access across the country). Best of Luck Aldo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 ELAAA appears to me to be aiming for the ultralight pilots and planes, not GA. Those who own and or fly GA will not be interested in joining up with ELAAA. Why would they, as they do not have annual registration or membership fees, not even bi annual fees. Those who built and registered a GA plane have even less incentive to go the ELAAA way. As I see it there has been so much moaning about how terrible that RAAus is that ELAAA have stepped up to provide a service which they say will be better. Those who are directing ELAAA have plenty of experience of working with RAAus and plenty of experience of what recreational pilots want. They also know a lot more about the problems of recreational flying at it is now and are trying tp provide a better service. Time will tell. So far they are ahead by having lesser fees for what is in reality the membership of RAAus. I have not whinged about how RAAus provide a service, but I have been vocal about the changes to the constitution and other recent changes. To me the changes were poorly thought out and rushed, making me think there is some hidden agenda. Maybe I am wrong, but I am waiting for more info about ELAAA and if I see a better operation I will not be slow to jump ship. 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank marriott Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I have been vocal about the changes to the constitution and other recent changes. To me the changes were poorly thought out and rushed, making me think there is some hidden agenda. Maybe I am wrong, but I am waiting for more info about ELAAA and if I see a better operation I will not be slow to jump ship. From the people I have spoken to Yenn, it is more than just you. But as you say "time will tell" - I would like to think that RAA administrators would look at the disquiet created over the last 12 months and consider what is best for RAA as an organisation as opposed to this is the way we are going, but I don't have a crystal ball, only an opinion, and to repeat the phrase "time will tell" - individuals will certainly be remembered for their actions - whether in a positive or negative way - at this stage everyone has their own opinions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonRamsay Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 $27.50 p.a.? That cannot be directly compared with the RAAus annual fee. The insurance you get from RAAus costs more than that and to me is good value. Personally I pay for extra cover on top of the RAAus cover. I could never recommend pilots flying without Liability cover. So, what do you get for $27.50? RAAus does a lot of work for CASA. That work costs RAAus members about $1.8 million p.a. and CASA recompenses about $107,000 (edited - Mod) 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 $27.50 p.a.? That cannot be directly compared with the RAAus annual fee. The insurance you get from RAAus costs more than that and to me is good value. Personally I pay for extra cover on top of the RAAus cover. I could never recommend pilots flying without Liability cover. So, what do you get for $27.50?RAAus does a lot of work for CASA. That work costs RAAus members about $1.8 million p.a. and CASA recompenses about $107,000 Will CASA ask less of E&LAAA? Level playing field? How will E&LAAA fund their first year of existence? Is it likely that they will be profitable from day 1? Will the shareholder stump up say $500,000 to ensure they don't go bankrupt before the first year ends? We will see, edited by mod...sarcasm does not become you. Play like grown ups please... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingVizsla Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I can't see a rush to a new organisation, because the majority are "lazy". It is too easy to just pay the renewal for insurance, stick with your bank, keep shopping at that supermarket, renew the phone contract etc.; even if there is a better deal on offer. My husband was going off about the big 4 banks, when I pointed out that he could very easily take his business to any of the alternatives, but he just keeps dealing with 2 of the four Banks and paying the higher interest, and complaining about the $49 annual fee on a credit card he uses 3 to 4 times a year and 0.004% interest on savings. When it comes to RAA - he "just wants to fly" and can't be bothered. So unless there is a cataclysmic event, guys like him will continue with what they're used to. Unless they can offer something more than CASA in GA registration, then I can't see anything much for me. I just wish they would spell out what they are intending to offer, even if it isn't yet set in cement, so I can start planning, researching, to decide which way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 A baseless opinion is rarely of value.No response to reasonable questions. edited by mod...stop the personal attacks people, it does not do you any justice. People are entitled to their own opinion...right or wrong. No need to play the person...MOD 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Righto, you two. Cut it out the personal attacks and get back to attacking the topic. (Emu..posts have been moderated to hopefully bring some sanity to the discussion. Thanks for your comment....mod) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I am just an ordinary member of RAAus, same status as every other ordinary member. I like to offer opinions based on facts and logic whereas some feel free to offer opinions based on, well, nothing. Such is life. Mr Ramsay the problems with RAA aka AUF can be directly related to that plastic thing that you are so proudly sitting in ,in your avatar and the people that wanted to fly them............................................................................ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Righto, you two. Cut it out the personal attacks and get back to attacking the topic. Ok sorry Emu , (edited by mod) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 John, and others who feel the same...I wonder, and it is only just that, nothing more...I am trying to figure out how we as recreational aviators have become more of a psuedo GA? I mean we can still fly our rag and tube, we can still fly at 500ft over non built up areas, it is still not mandatory to have a radio although advisable, we can still do our own maintenance and the only thing I think that is different is that we now have to have a PLB when flying further than 25nm.I am just asking this for my own knowledge on what has really changed...not disagreeing or anything just sitting back and asking an overall question An interesting post Ian, I too would like to hear the answers to your questions but it seems the silence is deafening? At some fly in's I have heard people complain about the lack of rag & tube basic aircraft, but no-one is stopping them or turning them away. Event organisers can only put an event on, they can't make certain aircraft come along. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Ok sorry Emu ,/QUOTE]Sorry Emu I could not stop my fingers, have now taken my Valium and sedatives (edited by mod) Edited by mod 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 An interesting post Ian, I too would like to hear the answers to your questions but it seems the silence is deafening?At some fly in's I have heard people complain about the lack of rag & tube basic aircraft, but no-one is stopping them or turning them away. Event organisers can only put an event on, they can't make certain aircraft come along. The thing is I think,{and this is only my opinion} that the mutation of an organisation for ultralights ie rag and tube , that has slowly but surely eaten away at casa to allow such high performance and heavier aircraft such as we have now with the plastic fantastic etc . Has taken over something that was special and restricted to a certain weight and speed etc that always had more of a family feel to fly ins etc and was fun ,,,where now it,s more like,,,HEY LOOK at my new 100000 plastic fantastic, she is so much better then those old rag and tube thingy,[they should ban those things they are dangerous sort of attitude. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Did you read the actual post from MrRamsay that you moderated my reply to , (yes all posts read and moderated) (Both yours and Mr Ramseys posts have been moderated to stop the slanging from both directions and bring some sanity to the discussion...mod) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sieczkowski Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Ok sorry Emu ,I,ll crawl back under my rock and behave , and leave our highly esteemed mentor Mr Ramsay alone now ok sorry all The thing is I think,{and this is only my opinion} that the mutation of an organisation for ultralights ie rag and tube , that has slowly but surely eaten away at casa to allow such high performance and heavier aircraft such as we have now with the plastic fantastic etc . Has taken over something that was special and restricted to a certain weight and speed etc that always had more of a family feel to fly ins etc and was fun ,,,where now it,s more like,,,HEY LOOK at my new 100000 plastic fantastic, she is so much better then those old rag and tube thingy,[they should ban those things they are dangerous sort of attitude. Can you not organise your own fly in and invite only rag and tube type aircraft? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldo Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 The thing is I think,{and this is only my opinion} that the mutation of an organisation for ultralights ie rag and tube , that has slowly but surely eaten away at casa to allow such high performance and heavier aircraft such as we have now with the plastic fantastic etc . Has taken over something that was special and restricted to a certain weight and speed etc that always had more of a family feel to fly ins etc and was fun ,,,where now it,s more like,,,HEY LOOK at my new 100000 plastic fantastic, she is so much better then those old rag and tube thingy,[they should ban those things they are dangerous sort of attitude. Bull I don't think you are looking at this from the correct perspective, I fly drifters and Jabiru's as part of recreational aviation, I fly Cessna's, Pipers and beech aircraft as part of GA, any time I flown into an event I have never been worried about what aircraft anyone was flying or what it looked like just happy to see them there I don't care what type of aircraft you fly just as long as you are flying. The event and whether it is good or not is not dependent on what you arrived in but who you are as a person. The other thing it is easier to get more of the family (for family feel) in a 6 or 8 seater than it is in a single or 2 seater but not sure what you consider family. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Can you not organise your own fly in and invite only rag and tube type aircraft? yes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Thanks Aldo Bull I don't think you are looking at this from the correct perspective, I fly drifters and Jabiru's as part of recreational aviation, I fly Cessna's, Pipers and beech aircraft as part of GA, any time I flown into an event I have never been worried about what aircraft anyone was flying or what it looked like just happy to see them there I don't care what type of aircraft you fly just as long as you are flying. The event and whether it is good or not is not dependent on what you arrived in but who you are as a person. The other thing it is easier to get more of the family (for family feel) in a 6 or 8 seater than it is in a single or 2 seater but not sure what you consider family. Thanks Aldo, Yes you are right about what you say I,m sorry for my misconceptions about RAA and I totally agree, it really does,nt matter what you are flying but I had not had my Valium today and was getting a bit loose. So my apologies to any that I might have offended with my posting esp,Don as I know how hard he has worked to make RAA what it is today.My reference to family was meant the family of fliers as a group sort of thing, as we used to feel sort of special in the old days as not many people would see them selves in those dangerous looking rag and tube things and I suppose we might have been just a little mad to fly them in the first place ,and today it just feels different so sorry to all from me Bull................... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest john Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Thanks AldoThanks Aldo, Yes you are right about what you say I,m sorry for my misconceptions about RAA and I totally agree, it really does,nt matter what you are flying but I had not had my Valium today and was getting a bit loose. So my apologies to any that I might have offended with my posting esp,Don as I know how hard he has worked to make RAA what it is today.My reference to family was meant the family of fliers as a group sort of thing, as we used to feel sort of special in the old days as not many people would see them selves in those dangerous looking rag and tube things and I suppose we might have been just a little mad to fly them in the first place ,and today it just feels different so sorry to all from me Bull................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 John, and others who feel the same...I wonder, and it is only just that, nothing more...I am trying to figure out how we as recreational aviators have become more of a psuedo GA? I mean we can still fly our rag and tube, we can still fly at 500ft over non built up areas, it is still not mandatory to have a radio although advisable, we can still do our own maintenance and the only thing I think that is different is that we now have to have a PLB when flying further than 25nm.I am just asking this for my own knowledge on what has really changed...not disagreeing or anything just sitting back and asking an overall question From my perspective its an attitude, focus and direction issue. The world viewpoint of the 'old AUF' was we are outside the GA world and we want minimum regulation for maximum fun and this is not IMO RAAus so whil Yes we can still fly the rag and tube and fly at 500ft there are many ways I see RAAus going GA in tems of its world view 1. GA attitude - controlled airspace - old school - we operate outside controlled airspace and we are OK with that. Safety issue raised of being forced into lower level over tiger country the old school turns around and challenges the validity of the need for that controlled airspace - outcome no new regulations on ultralights and less controlled airspace for everyone. Current RAAus view is not to challenge the need for the airspace but to use the example as a need to gain access to that airspace for RAAus aircraft. 2. Oversight of homebuilds - 4 stage inspections - old school said for 10 and 19 regn - you are the designer/builder owner of that airframe whilst ever you own it so minimum touch is needed as you can take responsibility for your own life ... and with the 19 group where there is a possibility of a passenger then overview inspection at the end and test hours to fly off. RAAus is apply 4 stage inspections on ALL airframes and remove owner modification without getting approval following change and further inspection - that is the MOST GA move to date. Overall its a view point of not accepting and advocating for minimal regulation - RAAus appears to be quite willing to move forward with significant new oversight and regulation within the RAAus documents over that which is in the CAOs. No idea if this will impact other groups like HGFA and the new ELAAA or if the long awaited part 149 will impact further but the apparent mindset of CASA to any issue in GA was 'regulate, regulate regulate' and that is what I see in the RAAus view of the world. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Tuncks Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 I have a lot of respect for Don Ramsay's comments but I have to say I'm horrified that we are spending 1.8 million on appeasing CASA. I call it "demanding money with menaces" which is illegal unless done by the government. Why not give CASA what they pay for and no more? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts