Checklists and procedures

[SDQDI]

While I agree that physical lists are too much in simple singles I do think it is still important to run a mental one before important parts of flight.

 

Otherwise it is a matter of time before something unusual surprises you. Something that shouldn't happen (like a passenger inadvertently activating the parking brake).

 

It can very simple for example for me before landing it is BFHA

 

B (brakes. Just a quick dab to see they have pressure and also a look to ensure park take valve is OFF)

 

F (fuel. I don't like changing settings on fuel just before landing but always take time to double check my levels and taps.)

 

H (harness. Just a little pull to tighten it a smidge, yes yes ever the optimist)

 

A (airstrip. I take time to double check the wind direction and ensure the strip is clear)

 

It takes me around 15 seconds and removes the major things that can cause me unnecessary grief. My before takeoff list is similarily short TFFP

 

Trim, Flaps, Fuel, Power

 

The TFF is done before takeoff power and the power is just a quick glance to ensure turbo is boosting and revs have reached Max after power is applied.

 

Of course startup and run up are a little more involved but I think a quick checklist at those two fairly important stages of flight is an absolute must, without them you can probably fly safely for a long time but one day?????????

 

 

[spacesailor]

And

 

That's the problem with the bureaucratic test that lumps all flying in one basket.

 

In a motor driving test you don't have to learn all types of vehicle's in the first learner's test. Imagine the failure rate learning about articulated or track vehicles.

 

Even RAA doesn't stray far from the CASA privet license test curriculum. Yet the air clubs can interpret the rules that it wants to, then the instructors interpret the club rules their way,

 

& when CASA puts its foot down, the serfs at the bottom are kicked in the Arsxx.: So: an itemized memory card for each aircraft is going into the "TOO HARD BASKET"

 

lets just get it done, a Big card for a jumbo jet, and a small card for a light plane, & a smaller still card for the smallest aircraft.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[kaz3g]

CAR 232.

 

I don't see this mentioned in the list of exemptions contained in CAO95.55 so, unless someone can point me to it, then I think that a written checklist is one of the documentary requirements for all pilots, not just GA pilots.

 

I have one in my AUSTER which is probably a far less technically developed aircraft than many of those flown by members of this list. My list sits in the door pocket along with my W&B table which is also an incredibly simple one. And yes, I have memorised them using simple mnemonics.

 

Kaz

 

 

[ben87r]

I'm with DJ on this one. There have been numerous incidents that I'm aware of where diligent checklist use would have prevented the event, but the pilots had "their systems" in place which failed on the day. . Checklists should be very short and be things like trim, fuel, pitch, mixture etc etc. I've had many times where I've missed something critical on a flow due to it being abbreviated/interrupted/out of sequence and caught it with the checklist. Even with the checklist it's not unheard of for items being missed, just adds another point to catch it before it becomes a problem.

 

Manufacturers checklists can sometimes resemble more of an expanded checklist and this can create problems as well.

 

Also physically picking up the checklist can help to remember to do it and one where you flip through shows the last checklist completed to confirm it was done.

 

 

[djpacro]

CAR 232... a written checklist .... I have one in my AUSTER which is ....

yours approved by CASA iaw that reg?

[djpacro]

CAR 232.I don't see this mentioned in the list of exemptions contained in CAO95.55 ...

useful to read Reg 212 first ...

[robinsm]

ALWAYS...ALWAYS use a check list, complacency is a killer. I dont care if your memory is encyclopaedic, use a printed check list.!!! (forgot to use it myself one day and didnt check fuel tap on...no 4 on my list..It always is but on this day I had turned it off to change the fuel filter and forgot to turn it on. Thank goodness the fuel ran out at the end of a long taxi and not during takeoff...learnt my lesson, ) ALWAYS use a checklist...!!!

 

 

[Roundsounds]

So, who uses written checklists in the event of an engine failure or fire?

 

 

[kaz3g]

useful to read Reg 212 first ...

Dunno DJPIL...when I open the Regs on Austlii, Reg 212 is in Division 2 (Requirements to ensure commercial operations) and Reg 232 is in Division 3 (Conduct of operations)

 

Reg 212 says "in this division" so doesn't appear to negate the requirement for check lists but I acknowledge the potential issue with "CASA approved". My AUSTER doesn't have a POH or Flight Manual and is exempt from those requirements and my checklists are a close copy of those for a Cessna 172M.

 

I note that the CASA info on Ramp checks also lists checklists for GA (but not RA)

 

I’m a GA pilot and have been selected by a CASA inspector for a ramp check | Civil Aviation Safety Authority

 

Kaz

 

 

[Roundsounds]

BTW, most GA light aircraft are exempt of the requirements of CAR 232:

 

CASA EX38/2004 - Exemption from obtaining approval of flight check system

 

 

[kaz3g]

So, who uses written checklists in the event of an engine failure or fire?

I use the universal mnemonic "P.A.N.I.C."

 

Kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

BTW, most GA light aircraft are exempt of the requirements of CAR 232:CASA EX38/2004 - Exemption from obtaining approval of flight check system

No...they are exempt from the requirements of 232(2) and 232(5) so they don't need CASA approved checklists, but they still must comply with 232(1), that is, they must have a checklist.

 

Why is it so damned complicated? Bloody lawyers!

 

Kaz

 

 

[Roundsounds]

No...they are exempt from the requirements of 232(2) and 232(5) so they don't need CASA approved checklists, but they still must comply with 232(1), that is, they must have a checklist.Why is it so damned complicated? Bloody lawyers!

 

Kaz

There is a CASA Advisory Circular stating that written procedures are required, but written checklists may not be appropriate in single pilot ops.

 

Watching pilots in Cessna 172s, Jabirus and similar types use "do lists" to start and perform before takeoff checks scares me. Learning procedures (supported by accepted NTS practices, flow patterns, by system groups or other memory joggers) provides pilots with much better situational awareness. Reading stories about pilots of simple aircraft not being able to fly as they misplaced their checklist is ludicrous.

 

There's also a big misunderstanding in the difference between a procedure and a checklist. If you must have a checklist, it should only include items likely to severely embarrass or injure the pilot. Including items such as beacons, avionics and radio calls in "checklists" is wrong.

 

 

[frank marriott]

It is interesting to read the various views on checklists - especially in simple SE aircraft.

 

I must confess I have never used one (in any aircraft) but on a flight check some years ago the testing officer stated that CASA now requires one - so being a good little boy I made one from the POH and put it in my aircraft door.

 

Although I haven't seen it since I am sure it would still be there should "an authorised officer" want to see one.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

It is interesting to read the various views on checklists - especially in simple SE aircraft.I must confess I have never used one (in any aircraft) but on a flight check some years ago the testing officer stated that CASA now requires one - so being a good little boy I made one from the POH and put it in my aircraft door.

Although I haven't seen it since I am sure it would still be there should "an authorised officer" want to see one.

What a load of crap on the part of the ATO. The B747-400 checklists have 3 items each on:

- before takeoff

 

- after takeoff

 

- before landing

 

The descent checklist has 4 and the approach has 1.

 

The average "CASA approved" GA checklist would contain more than the entire B747-400 phase of flight checklists in its before takeoff checklist. These long do lists used in GA do nothing to improve safety.

 

 

[diesel]

Mmmmmmm, I supose you are even ment to know where you are going to when you take off.

 

I usually work that out later.

 

Chas

 

 

[M61A1]

While I have nothing against basic checklists for basic aircraft, I reckon that there are some instructors (and pilots) out there that wish they were flying more complicated aircraft, and for some reason, want things to be more complicated than they actually are, and so, make more complicated checklists to make themselves feel more important. I think the same people are the ones who like complicated rules a well.

 

 

[bloodandiron]

That's funny M61A1... the only instructor who insisted I use checklists was the same one who made me death grip the yoke. He was a young grade 1. All the other instructors I've flown with do not mind at all my preference to not use a checklist because they understand a little Tomahawk is pretty hard to trash when there's only four switches.

 

I cringe whenever I see students with their heads down sounding off checklist items - clearly, they are more focused on reading those lines rather than thinking on what's going on around them. "Eyes out, hands in" is the best method. Flying, not driving - you know what needs to be done in the cockpit, so why put your eyes down on the paper? Keep them outside!

 

 

[skippydiesel]

KISS - I use my check list on the ground my memory in the air (as back up I have check list close at hand if needed). I trained on complex aircraft to retract & constant speed, but fly a simple fixed unercart, fixed prop aircraft. Down wind checks are HATCHES, HARNESS, BOOST PUMP ON, BRAKE OFF, SUFFICIENT FUEL FOR GO ROUND, ENGINE INDICATIONS (I don't even have carbi heat) and I ask my passenger not to talk until we come to a stop/engine off on the ground.

 

My message is - fit the check lists to the aircraft & keep your eyes outside the cockpit as much as possible.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

On my last glider flight review, the instructor was surprised I didn't know of and use the "Post release checklist".

 

This was just showing my age.. checklists have proven their worth in other situations, like pre take-off.

 

Once, after starting the aerotow roll, the tug plane shut down. It was hot, so I opened the canopy. Then the tug started again and I should have, but did not, do the pre take-off checks again.

 

So I had an open canopy and did the tow holding onto the canopy frame and wondering how I was going to pull the release without letting go the canopy or the stick. I chose the stick and got away with it and didn't tell anyone for a long time.

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Interesting article related to the subject of this thread, supported by interesting comments.

 

http://m.aviationweek.com/blog/skyhawk-prang-lining-swiss-cheese-holes

 

 

[facthunter]

IF the checklist is the only thing that makes you aware of the situation you are not really situationally aware.

 

OK.. if you are unfamiliar and not recent, you might be behind things for a while, but relying on a checklist is wrong for normal actions. They should be a flow related to just where you are in the management of your flight. If the checklist flew out the window (with a simple plane) it should not materially alter the way you fly your plane. It's a back up and CHECK not an initiator of an action. You should know all emergency procedures applicable to your plane , without the need for a checklist..Nev

 

 

[diesel]

Reminds me of a cessna getting wrecked because the radio failed.

 

Chas

 

 

[facthunter]

Or a DC10 crashing because of a U/C indicator bulb being checked. with 3 crew up front. Nev

 

 

[Roundsounds]

IF the checklist is the only thing that makes you aware of the situation you are not really situationally aware.OK.. if you are unfamiliar and not recent, you might be behind things for a while, but relying on a checklist is wrong for normal actions. They should be a flow related to just where you are in the management of your flight. If the checklist flew out the window (with a simple plane) it should not materially alter the way you fly your plane. It's a back up and CHECK not an initiator of an action. You should know all emergency procedures applicable to your plane , without the need for a checklist..Nev

Most definitely Nev! The problems related to pilots being trained in GA to use checklists as "do lists" is so wrong. Comments like "I couldn't fly my Jabiru or Cessna 172 'cause I left my checklist at home" are frightening. Maintenance of situational awareness regarding aircraft config' cannot be done using checklists. As you have rightly stated, checklists are run following completion of a procedure from memory or flow or however done. Ongoing monitoring of systems status seems to be lacking too. I think the introduction of ECAM/EICAS like devices in light aircraft will further reduce SA.