Jabiru engine failure

[geoffreywh]

no....................can't see anything funny and I've a GREAT sense of humour

 

 

[alf jessup]

Stone the crows people, only three members appreciated my warped sense of humour, didn't you see the extra large tongue in cheek at the end. Alan.

It's ok Alan

Some are sensitive and some are resilient and some just dont have a sense of humour but others like me do

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Turbs, I hate to tell you this, but by engine had an valve seat fall out because of operating it wrongly on the ground.No advantage would have been gained for anyone by reporting this. If you want to operate an engine outside of the handbook specifications, be my guest and report it all you like.

What good would have come from your advice? Jabiru demolished a few days sooner?

Bruce, you are required to report this, regardless of what the cause was.

 

Suggest you make a report now, better late than never :)

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I don't understand the theory motzart. What if I had caused the engine to stop by running it out of fuel? Would you also say that was an engine "failure" and should be reported to "authority"?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I don't understand the theory motzart. What if I had caused the engine to stop by running it out of fuel? Would you also say that was an engine "failure" and should be reported to "authority"?

Just in case Motz is busy, fuel exhaustion is a mandatory report with a penalty, so of course you would have to report it!

 

 

[bexrbetter]

You need to catch up with the history of it Bex.

Although it's been knocked around speaking another language every day, my English comprehension is still up there.

 

Bruce said 15 years of never missing a beat while "in the air". His ground running overheating incident does not fall within the bounds of that statement.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

On the ground? We are talking about things on the ground here.

 

Thanks Bex.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I don't understand the theory motzart. What if I had caused the engine to stop by running it out of fuel? Would you also say that was an engine "failure" and should be reported to "authority"?

Absolutely. Especially then :)

 

 

[Yenn]

That tongue wasn't in cheek, it was lolling around like a stupid labradoodle waiting to have a stick thrown for it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Although it's been knocked around speaking another language every day, my English comprehension is still up there.Bruce said 15 years of never missing a beat while "in the air". His ground running overheating incident does not fall within the bounds of that statement.

If you go back into the history, as I recommened, you as a would be engine designer would be familiar with the thermal expansion properties of the two materials involved, ad the result which occurred.

If you believe the clever wording, that's up to you; I'm always looking for a laugh.

 

 

[frank marriott]

Absolutely. Especially then :)

Absolute BS, if for maintenance purposes I turn the fuel off to drain the carby, it is not an incident it is a deliberate action and not a reportable incident- different if you run out of fuel whilst flying. Get real.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Calm down frank. we aren't talking about emptying a fuel bowl. But if you run out of fusl, it is a reportable incident, would you like the link to the Reg?

 

Engine failures are mandatory also, know anynone that has had an engine failure and not reported it frank? I do, wink bloody wink old son;)

 

 

[frank marriott]

Calm down frank. we aren't talking about emptying a fuel bowl. But if you run out of fusl, it is a reportable incident, would you like the link to the Reg?Engine failures are mandatory also, know anynone that has had an engine failure and not reported it frank? I do, wink bloody wink old son;)

Read what Bruce said about running an engine out of fuel. In relation to your last comment, no I don't but if you take your information from the late Ross, I have no further comment as he can't defend his statements (even though they were false and legal action was in process until his incident).

 

I have no interest in continuing any discussion with a remaining member of the committee of 6.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Not even going to justify that rediculous statement with a response.

 

I will however be happy to guide you to the regulations regarding reportable matters if you like, we wouldn't want you getting in any trouble mate

 

 

[frank marriott]

Piss off

 

 

[Riley]

Piss off

Gentlemen, in the past on these forums I've had great respect for both of your opinions and experience. Feel free to tear one another apart in PMs but let's not blow your statures with a public spat. Have a Bex (not the chinky one) and revisit tomorrow with a clean slate. cheers

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Turbs, you are right about the different expansion rates explaining what happened. In the transient situation, the CHT, on the outside of the head, would have been under-reporting the temperature at the valve seat. A good year 12 physics student could calculate the temperature at which the valve seat would have got loose.

 

The final outcome has all been good, in that the EGT's and CHT's are now all monitored and the system tweaked to make them a lot more equal.

 

I didn't pay enough for the plane to have the factory do all this beforehand, and I wouldn't have wanted that sort of plane. There are plenty of this type around, and they are the province of millionaires who never get the thrill of flying something they (sort of ) built and adjusted themselves.

 

 

[storchy neil]

so should I have reported the failure of TWO yes TWO needle and seat failures when they happened

 

WHEN I reported to both CASA and RAAus the repair of air craft 24 4524 and told my problem I do have written conformation of my statement

 

when some idiots cannot think out side there little box as it has not happened what would this idiot know when his idea is to far right of field it is not possible

 

the cause of needle and seat failure is that there was no return line to the tank as in the rotax installation manual

 

according to the so called experts at CASA and RAAus and the importer of rotax motors this manual does not have to be followed this to me is saying that rotax is wasting money on printing manual neil

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Storchy, mozart and turbs do have a point, and that is you should do what you reasonably can to help others avoid the problem.

 

I don't think that telling CASA would help, but telling the owners of similar planes on this forum sure would.

 

Although I don't have a rotax, the fault you describe puzzles me and so please tell us more.

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Mandatory reporting of incidents seems to be a grey area.

 

I have had two engine stops after landing on a rough strip. Both due to flooding of carburettor when the float vibrates violently.

 

Immediate start up with some rich running.

 

Is this a reportable incident?

 

PHIL.

 

 

[storchy neil]

jabiru phil in my opinion that is the start of your engine about to stretch the through bolts I personally would only start on one mag but I don't know nothing neil

 

 

[storchy neil]

bruce the blantant disregarde of the manual for the installation of rotax 912 motors is in my opinion a dismal state of the powers at the top

 

pages 8 73-00-00 august 01/2012 clearly stated that all 912 rotax will have a return line to the fuel tank to eliminate pressure from fuel pump plus vapour lock

 

this has been pointed out to all and sundry neil

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Its all about Data. Data used to help manufacturers, maintainers, operators and pilots have a better understanding of possible issues and failures of their machines.

 

Defect reports are another way of doing it without the need for the IRM, or RRM route. Defect reports to the RAA help gain a clearer picture of whats happening out there.

 

Nobody benefits if nothing is ever said or done about these problems.

 

 

[facthunter]

Particularly rough ground or dropping in from a great height will often cause an IDLING engine to stall as the shaking can cause agitation of the fuel in the bowl resulting in the level increasing and making it too rich momentarily. Nothing is unserviceable. but if the plane was subject to a Heavy landing some inspections should be carried out. That's NOTHING at all to do with the engine stopping. On taxiing out you are supposed to do an idle check. Close the throttle fully and the idle should be in the range and the engine not be likely to stop. IF it did stop you are supposed to have it rectified before the next flight. You also check brakes on many aircraft too. I doubt you would put in a report, if you correctly decided to return and have the brakes checked, but it you found the axle cracked half way through I would put in a report, as it might be a problem emerging with that type of plane.The essence of reporting "dangerous to aviation" incidents is how do you decide what was and what wasn't. It's clear that reporting stuff can help improve safety as more of us get to know. That's the claimed reason why it's a legal requirement to do it. Nev

 

 

[ozbear]

bruce the blantant disregarde of the manual for the installation of rotax 912 motors is in my opinion a dismal state of the powers at the toppages 8 73-00-00 august 01/2012 clearly stated that all 912 rotax will have a return line to the fuel tank to eliminate pressure from fuel pump plus vapour lock

this has been pointed out to all and sundry neil

Is this still a requirement, foxbat for 1 no longer fit return lines to their latest aircraft .