Ultralight crash North of Rockhampton

[Dinga]

Alf (post #145) I agree wholeheartedly but the items in this list I would see as something that every pilot should be considering or adhering to every-time he flys. Certainly not everyone does, we know that and many a sorry outcome has occurred during the execution of something perhaps a little silly or through lack of understanding (lets say about the weather conditions or similar).

 

Going back to Chris's post (#143) I think this is hitting the mark. This is bigger picture stuff. So in general if we want to lead the way and improve the safety of our sport, and indeed promote it with pride then step 1 for me has to be pulling out all the stops to identify the 'true' cause of accidents. And as Chris points out not the generic 'loss of control and collision with terrain'! yes we know that and it hurts. The details of of why, as best as can be determined are our first step.

 

The way IMHO that we are going to be able to identify this properly or at least have the best chance of this is to have industry leaders taking part, yes the Manufacturers (or representatives of) & guys like some of you on here that have many many years of experience that would have invaluable knowledge, as well as some of the more respected CFIs around the country, (we all have them in our respective states), you get the picture. I'm not saying that it would be easy nor that there will always be a true cause found but it still needs to be given its best shot.

 

This information needs to be readily available to industry as a whole regardless of whether it was an RaAus, HGFA or any other organisation. Only once we are developing a clear picture (and working as a whole together) of this can we then look back into the root causes, it may mean changes to the Training Syllabus, there may be changes required that some people will not like but at the end of the day if it is made to improve something that is identified as a way to improve the current record then it needs to be implemented.

 

We have to look at the bigger picture and we have to start at step 1 otherwise it becomes too big a mountain to climb.

 

Sorry if I am seen to rant a little, but I have been involved now with WM for only just over 2 years having come over from a PPL in GA. I think it is a great pastime however the list of accidents, incidents and fatalities in the that last 2 + years is to me unacceptable.

 

Skeptic36, great points by the way.....

 

Craig

 

 

[dan3111]

Not sure what sort of trike this is...Interesting points I see....

 

1. Very little obvious warning of the stall.

 

2. Front seat pilot doesn't recognise the stalled wing.

 

2. Tiny amount of wing movement required to recover by back seat pilot.

 

That video can be so true and demonstrates just one of the traps of training in any aircraft and a big trap for trike students . The student had just got the instructor at ease with student handling of the aircraft and so he was just looking around like a passenger would .He was lucky to get away with the very late instructors input close call . But trikes and open pusher 3 axis aircraft with nothing to line up aircraft attitude on the horizon so trap for students get lost with speed dropping off . I,m not a instruction but can remember first student flight in a drifter I was up and down like a roller coaster . Once you have a lot of hours under you belt you get the feel and don't need a ASI in a open aircraft . Someone did say there needs to be more training on high speed wings that sounds good but there is also the problem . Training 2 up in a small speed wing can also increase risk to help save lives . I,m sort of a bit of a loss why you would put a speed wing on a trike it,s I bit like trying to put a v8 in a motor bike . There is a bit of a speed limit of open air aircraft to keeping your clothes on ,head sets and leads attached . What speed you gain at cruise you often gain on stall speed as well ,may be they might need to address the maximin kgs per metre of wing to improve safety .

 

 

[skeptic36]

That video can be so true and demonstrates just one of the traps of training in any aircraft and a big trap for trike students . The student had just got the instructor at ease with student handling of the aircraft and so he was just looking around like a passenger would .He was lucky to get away with the very late instructors input close call . But trikes and open pusher 3 axis aircraft with nothing to line up aircraft attitude on the horizon so trap for students get lost with speed dropping off . I,m not a instruction but can remember first student flight in a drifter I was up and down like a roller coaster . Once you have a lot of hours under you belt you get the feel and don't need a ASI in a open aircraft . Someone did say there needs to be more training on high speed wings that sounds good but there is also the problem . Training 2 up in a small speed wing can also increase risk to help save lives . I,m sort of a bit of a loss why you would put a speed wing on a trike it,s I bit like trying to put a v8 in a motor bike . There is a bit of a speed limit of open air aircraft to keeping your clothes on ,head sets and leads attached . What speed you gain at cruise you often gain on stall speed as well ,may be they might need to address the maximin kgs per metre of wing to improve safety .

FYI, the guy in the back is not an instructor, he did very well I think.

You are correct about the speed thing to a degree, I don't find the wind to be a problem in my trike, it is more that as you get up above about 75 knts mine becomes more work than play to keep it straight and level

 

 

[Keenaviator]

Not sure what sort of trike this is...Interesting points I see....

 

1. Very little obvious warning of the stall.

 

2. Front seat pilot doesn't recognise the stalled wing.

 

2. Tiny amount of wing movement required to recover by back seat pilot.

 

Stall stick position applies to trikes too. Look where the control bar is, it's almost touching the front bar. I'd say the turn was 'over coordinated', ie too much pitch input for the turn.

 

 

[kasper]

QuestionWhere is dan missing the mark ? Neil

Quite a bit of it.

Thrust changes from larger engine have absolutely no impact on the size of arms needed to control the wing - in fact modern wings are much lower forces to fly at any power setting than the first generation wings - try something like a UK pegasus XL wing and you need arms of a gorilla to change airspeed more than 5mph from the trim speed - Raven wing has about 1kg force difference from speed of 40-85pmh, the airborne fast wings are even lower force

 

weight does not always equal increase in landing distance - people who have never flown trike do not get the fact that the wings really are very large in area and IF flown correctly many fast wings still have low landing speed - and some french wings have in flight sweep variable geometry to adjust from fast to slow flight

 

people without experience flying trike do not appreciate that you have absolute and direct control of angle of attack of the whole wing ... recovery from a stall in terms of getting it unstalled is REALLY quick and height lost can be high IF it falls off into a spiral dive (not spin) BUT generally height lost is minimal even on high performance wings. What is really dangerous is the spiral dive not the stall

 

and identifying the stall is USUALLY really easy in a trike - unless you have LOTS of G load your arm/bar position and the angle of the trike/wing is so obviously wrong as you go anywhere near a stall that anyone with a pilots certificate and having flown that trike through a stall sequence MUST know they are getting there long before it stalls.

 

 

[storchy neil]

thank you kasper for that answer to my stupid question

 

when persons make remarks without an explanation gets me to question motive

 

and yes I have been on a flight on a trike no he did not frighten me or do anything stupid as I will go again when it warm these old bones don't like getting cold Neil

 

 

[Air Creation]

Alf (post #145) I agree wholeheartedly but the items in this list I would see as something that every pilot should be considering or adhering to every-time he flys. Certainly not everyone does, we know that and many a sorry outcome has occurred during the execution of something perhaps a little silly or through lack of understanding (lets say about the weather conditions or similar).Going back to Chris's post (#143) I think this is hitting the mark. This is bigger picture stuff. So in general if we want to lead the way and improve the safety of our sport, and indeed promote it with pride then step 1 for me has to be pulling out all the stops to identify the 'true' cause of accidents. And as Chris points out not the generic 'loss of control and collision with terrain'! yes we know that and it hurts. The details of of why, as best as can be determined are our first step.

 

The way IMHO that we are going to be able to identify this properly or at least have the best chance of this is to have industry leaders taking part, yes the Manufacturers (or representatives of) & guys like some of you on here that have many many years of experience that would have invaluable knowledge, as well as some of the more respected CFIs around the country, (we all have them in our respective states), you get the picture. I'm not saying that it would be easy nor that there will always be a true cause found but it still needs to be given its best shot.

 

This information needs to be readily available to industry as a whole regardless of whether it was an RaAus, HGFA or any other organisation. Only once we are developing a clear picture (and working as a whole together) of this can we then look back into the root causes, it may mean changes to the Training Syllabus, there may be changes required that some people will not like but at the end of the day if it is made to improve something that is identified as a way to improve the current record then it needs to be implemented.

 

We have to look at the bigger picture and we have to start at step 1 otherwise it becomes too big a mountain to climb.

 

Sorry if I am seen to rant a little, but I have been involved now with WM for only just over 2 years having come over from a PPL in GA. I think it is a great pastime however the list of accidents, incidents and fatalities in the that last 2 + years is to me unacceptable.

 

Skeptic36, great points by the way.....

 

Craig

Yes Dinga... step one!

Lets not get confused/bogged or off track with all the pilot maybeeessss!

 

It is the time to address the particular - aircraft type/model/similarities/certification and the facts of the reason/cause of these tragic events that may have been preventable, lets stop acting like emus with our heads in the sand. I have been flying 45 years now, thirteen thousand hours and I am disgusted for the last time about a sport I truly love.

 

I have experienced problems with certain machines in the past and it is still happening.. why?

 

Australia has standards but not aerodynamic testing standards equal to other countries!

 

Fact: A hang glider manufacturers need to pitch test wings since 1984isH...

 

Why do we not have appropriate repeatable aerodynamic flexwing stability requirements for the two seat rocket ships we fly today that are manufactured in Australia.?

 

Air Creation and P&M Aviation both comply with DULV or similar Aerodynamic Pitching Testing Standards.. that's why I only fly these machines today.

 

No apology.. i said this years ago in another post for another fatal accident!

 

Nothing has changed, only more dead trike friends.. what tha!

 

 

[Air Creation]

That trike is an Air Creation Tanarg, which is not really relevant to the cause of many of these accidents IMHO.The trike is fitted with an Evolution Trikes wing, not an option offered by A.C, that in itself is not the problem either.

Where the problem is, the wing is a small fast wing, ( around 12 sqm ). Many pilots with lots of experience, come unstuck because they have been trained and are familiar with the larger wings, and where they have been able to get away with inputting large bank angles at low speed without coordinating the turn, the new generation wings will bite them, due to the higher wing loading.

 

What is needed, is training with an instructor experienced with the new gen wings, and practice, practice, practice at recovery from a spiral dive (demonstrated beautifully by Henry in the back seat). The inputs need to be instinctive, because where the above scenario is most likely to happen is low altitude where you don't have time for the "oh **** what is it I do here again" moment.

 

I am not in anyway suggesting that this is relevant to the accident being discussed here, and it is only my personal opinion. ( I am not an instructor)

The combination of wing and trike is an absolute unknown.. not flight testing or flight manuals to prove anything is correct or safe with this aircraft..!

 

 

[BLA82]

I think the post has deteriorated into a personal opionions forum and has lost the original meaning. If the discussion is to continue lets move it to the weightshift page and discuss it there and leave this one to just the facts and the memory of two special people who are sadly missed.

 

 

[Air Creation]

I think the post has deteriorated into a personal opionions forum and has lost the original meaning. If the discussion is to continue lets move it to the weightshift page and discuss it there and leave this one to just the facts and the memory of two special people who are sadly missed.

The facts and memories are very personal - the original meaning is two dads are not with us now or their families this Christmas or any other day bro....

I am confident Crezzi would appreciate anything we wish to express fairly about why he now flies with the angels.. moving to the weightshift page does not change the reality.

 

For too many years we have concerns of politically correct, pushing our own wheel-barrow or litigation from comment!

 

If you don't like the heat, get off the fire.

 

 

[Air Creation]

The reason to buy and fly any sport aircraft primarily evolves from evidence of manufacturing excellence with recognition by Aviation Authority.

 

[GALLERY=media, 3845]DULV - Negative + Positive & Low + Fast Speed Stability Report LR by Air Creation posted Dec 16, 2016 at 8:29 AM[/GALLERY]

 

[GALLERY=media, 3844]DULV BioniX 13 - Negative Pitch Test by Air Creation posted Dec 16, 2016 at 8:25 AM[/GALLERY]

 

 

[BLA82]

Is this the clasified section??

 

 

[Air Creation]

RIP John Cresswell

 

Chevy, where is Crezzi's video posted.. other than here?

 

 

[JimG]

Air Creation , can you show some respect for the tragic loss of these two people and shift your advertising to an appropriate thread.

 

I understand you have a point to make but this thread is NOT the place for it.

 

I only knew John briefly and would say G'day in passing some Saturday mornings at the field.

 

This has been an unbelievably tragedy and shock, my heart goes to the friends and families of John and Jason.

 

RIP John and Jason

 

JimG

 

 

[Air Creation]

No apology, not advertising at all!

 

The French, English and USA trike wings are all Aerodynamically Pitch Stability tested..

 

Why do we have so many trike deaths in Australia in Australian trikes - no pitch testing requirements.?

 

Time to change the CAO95.32 so it reflects an international standard.

 

Thats all.

 

 

[ev17ifly2]

thank you kasper for that answer to my stupid question when persons make remarks without an explanation gets me to question motive

and yes I have been on a flight on a trike no he did not frighten me or do anything stupid as I will go again when it warm these old bones don't like getting cold Neil

Starch, I have no motive other than to gently point out that the poster was bordering on ignorant when it comes to knowledge of weight shift aircraft in the same way i have limited knowledge on the flight characteristics of aircraft such as you fly.

 

FYI I own and fly an Aircreation Tanarg which was purchased from Chris.

 

 

[Malindi]

My condolences to the families of the two men who were killed in this tragic accident. This thread is wandering all over the place. It is easy to start a new topic and I can see that at least 2 could be started. Future safety to stop similar incidents from occurring and investigation into this specific wing as there have been a number of accidents in Australia and elsewhere. If someone really has a bee in their bonnet start collecting data and posting it. Keeping posts under topics can make it so much more useful to find information in the future. Not to mention the deceased family's reading all this in the future when they want to reflect on how well thought of their loved ones were. Chris Kyne

 

 

[Yenn]

Talking today to a firie friend who was involved with bush fires in the area at the time of the accident and he commented that the winds were very gusty. they were using water bombers and those planes were getting knocked around. My friend is not a pilot but is certainly sensible enough to see the rough conditions in the area.

 

 

[dan3111]

Talking today to a firie friend who was involved with bush fires in the area at the time of the accident and he commented that the winds were very gusty. they were using water bombers and those planes were getting knocked around. My friend is not a pilot but is certainly sensible enough to see the rough conditions in the area.

I drove up pass that way a week to the hours after the accident and it wasn,t nice winds then as well .

 

 

[chevy]

Chevy, where is Crezzi's video posted.. other than here?

Facebook on Sunshine Coast Sports Aviators

 

 

[Air Creation]

Facebook on Sunshine Coast Sports Aviators

thanxs a bunch..

 

 

[drobson]

RIP John Cresswell

 

Great Tribute to a great guy! must admit I shed a few tears and I'm still struggling with the fact that John is no longer with us.

I work overseas for large portions of the year and was due to fly with John this coming Monday and Tuesday, however, looking at the weather forecast I think that we would have been doing some theory and having a coffee instead of flying. John always erred on the side of caution, but I did enjoy our chats whilst waiting/hoping for good conditions.

 

Enjoy your flying wherever you are John.

 

 

[Air Creation]

Northwing Aerodynamic Wings Testing...

 

Link here: very interesting information for those not informed on flexwing standards.

 

North Wing · Hang Glider Ultimate Load Testing

 

 

[BLA82]

On 25 November 2016, an Airborne Edge XT-912 microlight, registered 34-8401, collided with terrain at Hadlow, Queensland. Both of the aircraft’s occupants were fatally injured.

 

The Coroner investigated this occurrence and requested technical assistance from the ATSB, with respect to analysis of CCTV footage and examination of structural components from the accident aircraft. To facilitate this support, on 12 December 2016 the ATSB initiated an external investigation under the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003.

 

The ATSB completed its technical assistance at the end of April 2017. Any enquiries in relation to the investigation should be directed to the Central Queensland Coroner’s office.

 

___________

 

The information contained in this web update is released in accordance with section 25 of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dinga]

On 25 November 2016, an Airborne Edge XT-912 microlight, registered 34-8401, collided with terrain at Hadlow, Queensland. Both of the aircraft’s occupants were fatally injured.The Coroner investigated this occurrence and requested technical assistance from the ATSB, with respect to analysis of CCTV footage and examination of structural components from the accident aircraft. To facilitate this support, on 12 December 2016 the ATSB initiated an external investigation under the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003.

 

The ATSB completed its technical assistance at the end of April 2017. Any enquiries in relation to the investigation should be directed to the Central Queensland Coroner’s office.

 

___________

 

The information contained in this web update is released in accordance with section 25 of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003.

 

And so are these findings being made available by other than contacting the Coroners Office. I know this has been discussed but the the whole sporting fraternity may have something to learn from this.