Trike General design and decision thread and safety

[dan3111]

Just thought would start a thread to bring the off topic decision of the Rockhampton accident , as the victims family and friends are left in piece .

 

 

[dan3111]

One question what are trike manufacture trying to improve next ? Speed ,payload, safety , what area is driving there market (what does there customers want to make them buy) . Something must make them part with 65k plus for a new trike they don,t seem to hold there resale so the trends must change for this to happen .

 

 

[alf jessup]

Just thought would start a thread to bring the off topic decision of the Rockhampton accident , as the victims family and friends are left in piece .

Good work dan311

 

A lot of different opinions from a lot of different people will come and who is right???

 

Cannot blame the machine as yet as we need to know the cause

 

Will we ever find out?? It remains to be seen

 

My opinion on Airborne strutted wings???

 

Overrated from what is advertised regarding hands off cruise speeds

 

I preferred the strutted wing in thermals as you got no wire slap as the wing was under tension and compression

 

I'd did have a quirk I didn't like which it would side slip real easy if you threw it around during S turns losing height

 

Other than that I felt quite safe behind it

 

Mind you

 

It did take the new owners life 14 months after I sold it to him but it wasn't the wings fault

 

Any wing will stall if going to slow while banking 60 deg turning final and not just a Airborne wing

 

Personally I think if you fly them within the parameters that they are designed for they are safe

 

Are they as safe as a Air Creation wing or a Revo or a P&M wing??? I cannot answer that

 

But we as humans are the ones that tell the wing what we want it to do

 

Alf

 

 

[Camel]

Good work dan311A lot of different opinions from a lot of different people will come and who is right???

Cannot blame the machine as yet as we need to know the cause

 

Will we ever find out?? It remains to be seen

 

My opinion on Airborne strutted wings???

 

Overrated from what is advertised regarding hands off cruise speeds

 

I preferred the strutted wing in thermals as you got no wire slap as the wing was under tension and compression

 

I'd did have a quirk I didn't like which it would side slip real easy if you threw it around during S turns losing height

 

Other than that I felt quite safe behind it

 

Mind you

 

It did take the new owners life 14 months after I sold it to him but it wasn't the wings fault

 

Any wing will stall if going to slow while banking 60 deg turning final and not just a Airborne wing

 

Personally I think if you fly them within the parameters that they are designed for they are safe

 

Are they as safe as a Air Creation wing or a Revo or a P&M wing??? I cannot answer that

 

But we as humans are the ones that tell the wing what we want it to do

 

Alf

Nicely said Alf, as an old trike pilot I appreciate the equipment and its pros and cons, what some people don't seem to appreciate what various wings are designed to take advantage of and what their disadvantages are !

When I was flying trikes the Wizard wing was just introduced ! A very different wing from the other wing !

 

 

[alf jessup]

Nicely said Alf, as an old trike pilot I appreciate the equipment and its pros and cons, what some people don't seem to appreciate what various wings are designed to take advantage of and what their disadvantages are !When I was flying trikes the Wizard wing was just introduced ! A very different wing from the other wing !

Camel

Yes the old Wizard wing

 

I did a grand total of 2 hrs in one while training, I hated it

 

We are our worst enemy in the end

 

Alf

 

 

[kasper]

Dan3111 Like all ultralights/Microlights trike are hunting the high end $$$ market in there design they are going after speed. Design fit and finish. Lower bar forces and cool looks. The people buying new ones are either schools that are training older starter pilots with big bank balances.

 

Gone are the days of folding the wing into the bag and trailing home - most of the high end machines now live fully rigged with tension on in a hangar ( not good for the wing life in many instances as the wing outer frames take on a set quicker shortening life)

 

Trikes themselves once you shove a 100hp 912 on the back are pretty much unchanged - the current generation -3rd gen - are basically longer to give a nice rear seat position but pay the price of being inherently unstable - add fins in rear spats etc

 

In the wings it's now all about lowering the bar loads and adding speed and IMHO this is the deadly problem.

 

To add reduce bar load you have to reduce stability margins - add need for speed and you remove washout and sweep. You end up with a wing that's more susceptible to spiral dive departure and one that you can easily throw into 60deg bank at low speed ... they are a more demanding wing not because they are inherently hard to fly but exactly the opposite they have almost no margins between safe flight and unsafe flight and there is little feedback through the bar of how close you are.

 

An example. The Medway factory in the U.K. Built a new high speed wing - there raven wing is nice/lovely and has a decent speed range of around 36-80mph with a vne over the 100 mark but it's a very heavy wing to lift onto the trike and is heavy on the ground - lots of sweep and wing metalwork behind the hang point.

 

The new wing was smaller. Less sweep. More tension in the trailing edge and the upper fin removed. On first test flights it was fast. It was light on the bar. And it was horrible ... it flew sideways as happily as straight and it was happy to roll into a spiral at the drop of a hat. We thought and chatted through the problems and admitted it needed tip fins not as an advertising tonic but to make it actually behave. I made up a pair of tip fins that also closed the tip gap helping to retain pressure within the wing outlers and stopping them flattening out as much at speed ... result was lovely. No sideways flight. Lower bottom end speed. No spiral drop off and it was still fast. 15+ mph faster than the raven on the same engine/prop as the raven.

 

For me I made a raven wing faster by recutting it. I cut 2 metres out of the span and recut the wing from 15m^2 to just over 10. Mine is no longer a raven it's my design as I fundamentally changes the span loads. Changed the hang point for trim and even changed the profile on the outer panels.

 

And I was respectful of the pitch stability ... that's the reason the outer panel battens got changed - I needed greater stability margins at the higher speeds.

 

 

[dan3111]

Hi Kasper

 

Thanks for the insight in trike wings , though speed would be the driving force behind new models . Much of those wing terms you have said are used in fixed wing aircraft as well . Wash out ,sweep ,and wing area are used in designing any wing for any aircraft and to much of any one of those makes a dog of a machine . Maybe with out making more red tape schools may have to set they own skill levels before they can be trained in the speed wings to reduce risk at low level to everyone involved . The bad crashes in trikes I know of ,have been under 500 in turn not showing off .

 

 

[Dieselten]

The maximum bank-angle for a turn in the circuit (be it crosswind, downwind, base or final) shoud be no more than 30 degrees on any trike wing, be it Wizard, Arrow, P&M Blade or whatever your trike-wing is. For most normal flying away from the circuit a 15-degree banked turn is quite sufficient.

 

I teach the 60-degree banked turn as an emergency avoiding-manoeuvre only, using added engine-power to counteract the potential height-loss due to load-factor, and stressing the need for a gentle recovery to prevent overspeeding as a result of conservation of angular momentum.

 

Anyone needing to do a 60-degree angle-of-bank turn onto final needs some re-training in how to fly the circuit and how to judge angles and distances. Circuit-height is not the place for such potentially hazardous manoeuvres. I lost two friends on an Arrow near Glen Innes in 2015, and as yet I still have no explanation for how the accident occurred, coronial inquest notwithstanding. About the only thing I do know is the Arrow wing has no innate malevolence - it is just a machine, and needs to be correctly handled and kept within the defined operating parameters as set out by the manufacturer. Somehow, in that accident, it was mis-handled to the point of the situation becoming irrecoverable. That much is certain. How it was so mishandled remains a mystery, and seems destined to remain so.

 

Those who decry the Wizard wing have failed to grasp one very significant fact...the Wizard is an excellent training-wing because it is forgiving, yet it does require a pilot to manage the wing through all phases of flight. Landing a Wizard in gusty conditons will give the pilot a workout - and show him just how he needs to fly the wing in every axis all the way down to the ground. He will be a better pilot for it. (I have about 1100 hours on the Wizard and am grateful for each and every one of them.) I train on the Cruze as well as the Arrow and stress to each student the particular characteristics they must keep in mind at all times for whichever wing they are flying.

 

Lastly, I fail to see the need for going any faster than about 60KIAS on a trike, and in fact 50KIAS suits me just fine. If you need to go faster, get a different aeroplane. (If I need to go 100KIAS then the J160 is my aeroplane of choice.)

 

 

[riverduk]

Lastly, I fail to see the need for going any faster than about 60KIAS on a trike, and in fact 50KIAS suits me just fine

Hi all, I fly a Airborne Edge X Classic with an original Streak wing which I still trailer to the airfield every time I want to fly, as much as I enjoy this aircraft I would love to update to a newer (faster) aircraft which I would love to keep set up in a hanger at the airfield. The Black Duk in standard set up, flies at around 50KIAS, for a bit more speed I mount the wing in the fwd mount hole which increases my airspeed to 55KIAS. As you could imagine it can be a bit "comfortable" with a passenger but it is fun to fly and it gets a bit of air between my bum and the ground.

 

I guess the main reason I would like a quicker trike is that going anywhere outside my local area is a time consuming flight, for example I fly from a private airfield in Northern Vic, to fly to the likes of Bendigo (family) is 42 nm, Yarrawonga (instructor's field) is 50nm, yeh, only roughly a 1 hour flight for both but include transport to field and set up etc prior to flight and a flight becomes a day really easily and is the main reason I have yet to complete my X-Country endorsement, a faster trike would perhaps make it bit more worth while for me. I look at these newer trikes and how they are capable of reasonable X-Country flights that in some cases can match some fixed wing aircraft and think it would be great to do that, don't get me wrong, I love the Duk and every time I point her nose to the sky I'm happy and grateful I can, its just that even an extra 10 - 15 KIAS would make a big difference in where I fly too.

 

I think I get why trike manufacturers are going for more speed, comfort etc, they need to remain a viable option for anyone who wants to leave the old terra-firma, its the only way they will get bums in seats, so to speak and in the 80K region price wise there are probably quite a few people who can afford that but not the 120K - 150K for a fixed wing aircraft, keeping in mind that we are talking top of the range in both types. Anyhow thats my 2 cent worth,

 

Cheers, Ross

 

 

[Stearman]

I fly a Airborne Edge X Classic with an original Streak wing ....................

The Black Duk in standard set up, flies at around 50KIAS, for a bit more speed I mount the wing in the fwd mount hole which increases my airspeed to 55KIAS.

 

I guess the main reason I would like a quicker trike is that going anywhere outside my local area is a time consuming flight, for example I fly from a private airfield in Northern Vic, to fly to the likes of Bendigo (family) is 42 nm, Yarrawonga (instructor's field) is 50nm, yeh, only roughly a 1 hour flight for both but include transport to field and set up etc prior to flight and a flight becomes a day really easily and is the main reason I have yet to complete my X-Country endorsement, a faster trike would perhaps make it bit more worth while for me. I look at these newer trikes and how they are capable of reasonable X-Country flights that in some cases can match some fixed wing aircraft and think it would be great to do that, don't get me wrong, I love the Duk and every time I point her nose to the sky I'm happy and grateful I can, its just that even an extra 10 - 15 KIAS would make a big difference in where I fly too.

If a 50 nm flight at 50kts takes 1 hour which "include transport to field and setup etc prior to flight becomes a day", an extra 15 knots will mean your 60 minute flight becomes a 46 minute flight, not much difference to your day really.

 

Not sure if you operate under RAAus or HGFA? I know in RAAus without a X-Country endorsement you can only fly 25nm, does HGFA allow you to do the 50nm flights without the endorsement?

 

 

[riverduk]

If a 50 nm flight at 50kts takes 1 hour which "include transport to field and setup etc prior to flight becomes a day", an extra 15 knots will mean your 60 minute flight becomes a 46 minute flight, not much difference to your day really.Not sure if you operate under RAAus or HGFA? I know in RAAus without a X-Country endorsement you can only fly 25nm, does HGFA allow you to do the 50nm flights without the endorsement?

I fly under RAA so 25 nm for me, so I just poke around my local area or occasionally trailer the trike to Yarrawonga to fly up there. Set up, including towing trike to airfield, unloading, setting up, full check and walk around before actually going flying takes about 1 hr 10 mins whilst pack up is a little less. I know for the time being even with a faster trike, set up / pack up is still going to happen but that extra 15 mins of air time and distance really appeals to me because I could cover more distance in the same flying time, cheers.

 

 

[M61A1]

If a 50 nm flight at 50kts takes 1 hour which "include transport to field and setup etc prior to flight becomes a day", an extra 15 knots will mean your 60 minute flight becomes a 46 minute flight, not much difference to your day really.Not sure if you operate under RAAus or HGFA? I know in RAAus without a X-Country endorsement you can only fly 25nm, does HGFA allow you to do the 50nm flights without the endorsement?

Not trying to be picky, but throw in a 10-15 kt headwind and see how much difference it makes, especially if you are travelling a bit further than 50 miles. I fly a Drifter at around 60 kts and a bit of a headwind knocks a lot off your range.

 

 

[facthunter]

Being realistic, with low cruise speed models there are days when you just don't bother going, even for fairly short trips if the headwinds are strong enough. Nev

 

 

[kasper]

Not trying to be picky, but throw in a 10-15 kt headwind and see how much difference it makes, especially if you are travelling a bit further than 50 miles. I fly a Drifter at around 60 kts and a bit of a headwind knocks a lot off your range.

Indeed. In the old Panther XL fast cruising at 55mph we had the club cross country treasure hunt flight following cryptic clues ... with a 15mph wind it took me 1.5 hours and 1 tank of petrol to get all of 10 miles from the starting point (via 3 way points) ... and at all times I remained in clear sight of the clubhouse!

While I understand the desire for speed there are very real control and handling 'compromises' that are necessary to gain speed on a flexwing ... and until someone goes one step further than even P&M with their flying egg and make the wing solid, enclose the cockpit entirely and move the weightshift of the trike from bar to control column we are not likely to see trikes cruising at anywhere near the speed achieved by even moderately well performing three axis using the same power.

 

 

[facthunter]

Without being against weightshift. I wonder if the concept of getting one to travel fast is a good idea? There's a few times I've ended up hitting the roof of a 3 axis, in orographic (mechanical) turbulence, even when fairly tightly held by the seat belt. How would a weightshift tolerate this as far as controllability is concerned? Nev

 

 

[kasper]

Without being against weightshift. I wonder if the concept of getting one to travel fast is a good idea? There's a few times I've ended up hitting the roof of a 3 axis, in orographic (mechanical) turbulence, even when fairly tightly held by the seat belt. How would a weightshift tolerate this as far as controllability is concerned? Nev

it depends. Its the wing that is the thing in weightshift and none of them are designed for negative G flight and negative G flight is actually pretty much the second easiest way killing yourself in a trike - first is spiral dive.

when I say it depends its often a speed of wing thing - and in fact the higher the design cruise speed the better the wing is in negative 'lump' flying - high speed wings have more tension in the rear of the sail and a short negative bump that throws you up into the harness generally will not have a big impact on the dynamics of the wing as its both short duration and the 'stiffness' of the trailing edge (and the basic flatness that is in the design of the rear of the sail) means that the wing does nto reverse its washout quickly and you do not end up with a tuck over situation.

 

eg the old XL wings (first generation) were a really softly cut sail and have lots of what you might refer to as billow and the upper rigging wires are really necessary to control/prevent billow/washout reversal on high speed/negative G flight. On the second and third generation of wings with higher speed and move to struts and no upper rigging you find that there is a LOT more capability for living with negative lumps - and for the strutted topless wings there is a LOT of metal and cables inside the wing doing the job of controlling washout reversal on negative loading ... those wings are heavy.

 

From my experience the Raven wing is OK on negative lumps - even though its 15m^2 and 11m span it is a nice wing in the air and takes negative hanging in the straps flying well enough ... though i prefer not to be hit by a negative lump when hooning along at 70+ its entirely possible to live with.

 

But the Raven wing is fundamentally different to other wings of similar speed range in that it does not have what is basically a straight trailing edge as nearly all other wings do - it has the SAME planform as the Horten IX bomber but with extended tips on the same taper as the outers of the HIX... this moves the wing area centre inboard and moves the wash out a long way behind the hang point - it is eminently trimable to speed both by hang point movement and by tip adjustment ... at the cost of having a lot of the metal in teh wing behind the hang point so on the ground that wing is bar forward with a lot of weight on it compared to other less swept wings.