Airport Fund

[frank marriott]

From the president -

 

" I am knocking about an idea I’ve had to put together a proposal asking for members to contribute to an airport fund"

 

REALLY! As I no longer get Sport Pilot I was only recently made aware of this article by others. It is a prime example of a centralist attitude to the current administration.

 

An airport (completely ignoring the expense) in the ATC might be of use to a handful of members, but Australia is a big place and of NO interest to many/most.

 

For those, like me, who no longer get Sport Pilot, it is worth reading this article to see the direction being taken or proposed - no wonder the big push was to get rid of regional representatives.

 

I wonder how long before director fees come up, as was included with the change.

 

Welcome to the Canberra Aero Club.

 

To think it has anything to do with buying airports all over Australia is - well just fanciful.

 

 

[DGL Fox]

From the president -" I am knocking about an idea I’ve had to put together a proposal asking for members to contribute to an airport fund"

REALLY! As I no longer get Sport Pilot I was only recently made aware of this article by others. It is a prime example of a centralist attitude to the current administration.

 

An airport (completely ignoring the expense) in the ATC might be of use to a handful of members, but Australia is a big place and of NO interest to many/most.

 

For those, like me, who no longer get Sport Pilot, it is worth reading this article to see the direction being taken or proposed - no wonder the big push was to get rid of regional representatives.

 

I wonder how long before director fees come up, as was included with the change.

 

Welcome to the Canberra Aero Club.

 

To think it has anything to do with buying airports all over Australia is - well just fanciful.

In general I think it would be a good idea but in practise, as you say Frank where could we buy an airfield where this deal would be an advantage for ALL members...so good idea but sorry back to the drawing board..

 

David

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Frank, you can read it online via ISSUU or off the website, only takes a few minutes to flip through it.

 

I read this a few days ago didn't want to start the thread as it will only add an extra $75 to a membership per year, so now $290p/a. If they do go over budget it will probably up being a bit more than $300.

 

Still affordable flying

 

 

[Yenn]

I got an emailed news from RAAus, crowing about all the good things they had done in the last year. No mention of an airport fund. They seem to be a self congratulating mob, without anything much of benefit to the members.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Yes -------------- They love themselves in Canberra. Poor mob they have not heard about "decentralisation". As Frank said - Australia is big. What use would an airport in Canberra be to us in Nth. Qld?

 

A very good place to start the airport lobby is Blackwater, Dysart, Moranbah. Last time I did a search regarding member's post codes Emerald was the winner hands down. Those airports are closed to the general public. The big mining companies are running the country and also the airports.

 

Now would it be a good idea to get off their little soap box in Canberra and take these mining companies on, that will be a useful achievement.

 

Remember Australian"s own Australia not the non tax paying multi nationals with their accounting tricks.

 

Just a task for the "Airport Funding Brigade" might be a bit hard for them as they will not be using members money to purchase an airport.

 

Then again, "Why not start a satellite club in Blackwater"? Food for thought.

 

KP.

 

 

[JEM]

Spose they know the ACT is mostly a Controlled Traffic area and already has an airport called Canberra International. If we had CTA no problem to land there. Cheap too. From memory my last time through there was $27 landing fee and $27 day parking.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I have a recollection that the SAAA once owned Mangalore but didn't keep it for some of the reasons stated here. Is this correct?

 

 

[Nobody]

Perhaps people could have a read of the article and form their own views. The article wasn't specifically about an Airport in Canberra.

 

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/64-december-2016-w.pdf

 

"I reckon that by owning or taking over the management of a few airports or properties around the country in strategic locations, we would actually help to ultimately reduce our membership fees. Of course it wouldn’t come for free, but it shouldn’t be expensive either"

 

and another quote:

 

"To me, it would be less about the money and more about protecting what we do. In most communities there are sportsgrounds, swimming pools, halls, etc. which can be used by the public. For many years we’ve been calling for funding to do similar things for pilots and aircraft owners, but we get treated like a distant cousin no one cares about. Perhaps it’s time to change the way we look at the problem and pull together to address it in a way which would make a real difference.

 

 

 

Perhaps if we stop doing what we’ve always done, we’ll stop getting what we’ve always gotten. Why not tackle the problem head on and address the issues directly? If we take control of our landing areas, maybe, just maybe, we could turn airports back into something for aviators and stem the tide of residential and commercial developments which now take priority over our safety."

 

 

[DGL Fox]

Perhaps people could have a read of the article and form their own views. The article wasn't specifically about an Airport in Canberra.https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/64-december-2016-w.pdf

 

"I reckon that by owning or taking over the management of a few airports or properties around the country in strategic locations, we would actually help to ultimately reduce our membership fees. Of course it wouldn’t come for free, but it shouldn’t be expensive either"

 

and another quote:

 

"To me, it would be less about the money and more about protecting what we do. In most communities there are sportsgrounds, swimming pools, halls, etc. which can be used by the public. For many years we’ve been calling for funding to do similar things for pilots and aircraft owners, but we get treated like a distant cousin no one cares about. Perhaps it’s time to change the way we look at the problem and pull together to address it in a way which would make a real difference.

 

 

 

Perhaps if we stop doing what we’ve always done, we’ll stop getting what we’ve always gotten. Why not tackle the problem head on and address the issues directly? If we take control of our landing areas, maybe, just maybe, we could turn airports back into something for aviators and stem the tide of residential and commercial developments which now take priority over our safety."

Yes that is true, he didn't actually say in the ACT but what we are saying is still correct, he said "management of a few airports or properties" the way I see it unless we had under our control an airport or property in EVERY state there is no point in talking about this and if we waved the magic wand and it was possible, who will choose these properties, us or them?

 

David

 

 

[Riley]

I got an emailed news from RAAus, crowing about all the good things they had done in the last year. No mention of an airport fund. They seem to be a self congratulating mob, without anything much of benefit to the members.

I'm sufficiently dis-enchanted with RAA board (but not the operational sectors) and it's present and projected directional movement that I can't be bothered even reading their monthly 'See how good we are for you' emailed newsletters and rely solely 'on word-of-mouth' advice at the airfield if anything comes up that I legally need to attend to in order to retain access to my flying under the obligatory RAA banner. The suggestion of RAA even contemplating airfield management/ownership is too bizarre to warrant serious discussion!

 

 

[peter]

Perhaps a good start to this idea would be to sell the Canberra office and buy/rent somewhere like Narromine.

 

To be saying we need airports of our own whilst steadfastly holding on to an office in the worst possible place to fly to is somewhat amusing.

 

 

[silvercity]

The Australian population centre is about 40km east of Ivanhoe, NSW. There's a perfectly good aerodrome already established and the locals are friendly.

 

It's a no brainer surely.

 

 

[Diddy Pilot]

Perhaps a good start to this idea would be to sell the Canberra office and buy/rent somewhere like Narromine.To be saying we need airports of our own whilst steadfastly holding on to an office in the worst possible place to fly to is somewhat amusing.

Why does RA AUs have an office in Canberra ?? Not to fly out of !!!!

 

The office being in Canberra is conveniant and accessible for the interaction with CASA (or any other Government agency such as ATSB which often comes up as an identified need on this forum). If ever we would need to lobby politicians if you are located 10 mins away from Parliament House, we have ready access to their offices; move out to anywhere else and we will be deflected to our local Member (which changes with regular monotony nowadays) a single voice in the wind.

 

Australia has a history of complaining about where seats of power/authority are located; it was on this very basis that on Federation it was decided to create the ACT as a separate territory not controlled by any of the States. If the RA Aus Head Office was to move to Narromine, how should Qld or Vic members feel, similarly if we move out of Canberra and distance ouselves from the links required and set up shop in whichever locality has the highest membership (Emerald according to a prior post). Then what happens if our western cousins in Perrth suddenly enjoy flying and become the new locality with the highest concentration of pilots. Do members then fund a further move???

 

This thread started on the false premise that RA Aus was committing to buy an airport in Canberra. Easily understood to be not true once the original article is read and digested. For me Canberra was just referred to as a location most would undertsand as to where it is ( Capital city with large population). Unless you already knew about them the references to Jacobs Well and Hoxton Park do less to convey the message. But their reference enables the reader to comprehend that a local airfield could be considered. I read the article as a member of the flying fraternity, who just so happens to also be Chairman of the RA AUs Board, sharing an idea and asking "what do you think?". No commitments, no directives, could also have been a letter written in to RA Aus by any of us.

 

Some will like the idea, some will not, some will think about it and decide later. Maybe the original idea prompts others to think and a better proposition develops which delivers a greater benefit. Idea sharing as has happened in most cultures for centuries, however in todays internet age the quickest response is always negative and misleading.

 

There is regular debate about the fees being paid to maintain RA Aus, fair enough no one likes to pay for the intangibles provided. However if properly developed this idea of owning/operating/maintaining airfields could enable (or prevent the loss of) flying in locations where facilities are not currently available and via a user pay system (just like it would be if anyone else owned the field) generate an alternate revenue source fort RA Aus. Could being the registered operator of multiple airfields also possibly give RA Aus greater relevance to reviewing legislation???

 

 

[old man emu]

There's supposed to be a new airport being built in western Sydney, and as yet there are no takers for operating it.

 

Sydney Airport Group yet to confirm if it will build, operate Badgerys Creek

 

OME

 

 

[Happyflyer]

I think I would be fantastic for RAAus to own an airfield, be headquartered there, have a big annual airshow.

 

 

[DrZoos]

I dont want to pay membership to maintain an airfield I may never use! Im happy for them to be at one and have a flyin, but not own it!

 

Also imagine the huge expense of constantly flying the troops to Canberra to meet with the Devils.

 

Buy the aircraft you're going to fly 95% of the time. Leave RAA where it needs to be 95% of the time.

 

 

[kasper]

OK - lets get real.

 

A basic airfield sized piece of land...

 

We would want around 600m strip with at least 100m at least a run off each end - so at least 800m long

 

We want the runway around 15m wide with 10m edges plus a taxiway 15-20m so the runway is at least 60m wide

 

We would want at least 2 rows of hangars over half that length with taxiways so that's at least another 50-60m of width

 

Why only half the length for hangars? well you will want a club house, BBQ area and car park.

 

So we need a minimum piece of ground 800m long and 200m wide - or around 40 acres

 

Within 1 hour of a major city this land is impossible to obtain so it will be a couple of hours from a major city or near a regional town - we will be up against hobby farmers for a piece of land that size so I expect paying a minimum of $4,500 an acre ... so we need $180-$200k plus to buy the land

 

Then we will need a club house for tea/coffee and the compulsory big tales of daring do, a car park, and of course taxiway and runway ... bitumen is prohibitive and a good gravel surface is also expensive so lets leave it as a grass runway and taxiway.

 

I'd hazard a guess that this infrastructure is going to cost north of $500k without hangars or planning permissions etc

 

So a basic 600m runway starting from scratch is going north of $750k to build ... we have around 9,000 members so that is a one off cost for each member of less than $85 but lets allow an overrun so allow $100/member

 

Now we really are still a member organization aren't we? Not a club for the elite so we will not going to just put 1 airfield in for the convenience of a few but will need to cover a lot of OZ to actually benefit the MEMBERS ... so we should be planning at least 1 in each state and territory ... so we really need at least 7 ... but to be useful it would be better to have them spotted around where there are NO open to RAAus aircraft airfields but there are RAAus members ... so reality is that we probably need 50+ airfields ... so that more like $5k per member minimum ... or fifty years of $100 levies on all members . ... and don't forget that with 3,500 RAAus aircraft that's an average of 70 airframes per airfield ... which in reality will probably only be 20-30 aircraft at any airfield as many will still lvie at existing home airfields and private strips.

 

And thats the basic minimum cost to establish ... but we need to operate them ... mowing, insuring, collecting landing fees from non-members, running the tea and coffee facilities in the club house ... so probably $20-40k per airfield per year if run basically on donated time and 'club' members time even after deducting ground rent from hangar sites ... so 50 airfields needs $100 - 200k to run ... thats an ongoing $100-200 per member per year to operate the 50 airfields.

 

Now lets review the history - a $60/yr increase in member fees that was part of the removal of the printed magazine caused lots of angst ... so how much open revolt and angst would there be IF you tried actually doing something on a scale that made a difference for MEMBERS and not just one group of members?

 

This will either be some glorious pie in the sky vision from on high or it will be put into practice and benefit only a few.

 

Better off finding 20-30 'local' pilots and each trowing in $40k and build your own 'club' field

 

 

[DrZoos]

Probably all makes sense for the 100 people who will use it!

 

Also makes sense if its within 3 hours of say 20% of our members...

 

Now put yourself on the other side of the fence and contribute an extra $100 for an airfield you will never use, then contribute $100 to fly RAA members to Canberra to meet with CASA 9 days per week.

 

 

[jetjr]

RAA setting up a base at an airfield or a greenfield developement has been kicking around for ages

 

Nothing happens because status quo works

 

Several threads on it

 

 

[kaz3g]

Yes that is true, he didn't actually say in the ACT but what we are saying is still correct, he said "management of a few airports or properties" the way I see it unless we had under our control an airport or property in EVERY state there is no point in talking about this and if we waved the magic wand and it was possible, who will choose these properties, us or them?David

This conversation was done to death a few years ago when an idea was floated about moving the head office to a rural airfield and building club facilities there.

 

The inability of so many to look beyond there own needs for the collective good will sink it every time.

 

Kaz

 

 

[robinsm]

Move the whole thing to Temora, already setup, good strips. good community. Fly in accomodation and an aviation aware community....

 

 

[frank marriott]

The inability of so many to look beyond there own needs for the collective good will sink it every time.

We are an Australian wide organisation (although sometimes one could be forgiven for thinking otherwise)

 

Purchasing & maintaining an airfield in ACT or even Vic could hardly be pushed as "collective good".

 

Time will tell, but I suggest our organisation is heading into dangerous or at least worrying times.

 

 

[SDQDI]

Frank could you quote the part where it mentions buying and maintains an airport in the ACT or VIC? I haven't read the article but it seems from what was quoted earlier that there wasn't any particular location in mind but it seemed to come off as multiple locations and NOT suggesting to buy them all, I think the words were "owning OR managing"

 

This subject does have positives and negatives on both sides but reading things into either argument that aren't there doesn't really help either idea.

 

I think it would be nice to have a discussion without doom and gloom.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

There are a couple of gliding clubs I know that own their own land and they are much better off for it.

 

The Constellation model club also owns their own land and they are in a much better place because of it too.

 

Maybe RAAus money could help locals and in return external RAAus members could have rights. I like the idea in principle but each case would need to be justified.

 

 

[Downunder]

What would be a better deal, would be for the RAA to collaborate with existing airport owners/operators to make "RAA friendly" airfields.

 

This could come in various forms, mogas, hire car, disscounted accomodation, hangarage, cheaper landing fees, etc.

 

The communities and airports would bennefit from the increased income and recoup their investment (if any) to become and be designated "RAA friendly" which the RAA would promote to their members. Travelling RAA members could then take advantage of the facilities offered and get some value from their fees.

 

Perhaps start with a trial airfield (somewhere popular) and then one in each state?