Airport Fund

[frank marriott]

Here's Canberras problem...From the Sydney Morning Herald Feb 2012

Why Canberra needs a second airport urgently

After reading the 2012 report, it shows in the detail that there is no justification. Have a look at the rest of Australia and traffic density - the fact stand on their own. It would appear the in crowd from Canberra area want something for themselves, forget the rest of Australia - does that sound familiar!!!

 

 

[timb]

Kasper

 

if someone with a legal right needs to know the address of my aircraft then they will have access through the RAAus.

 

Doesn't cut it

 

AUF/RAAus have history here - refusing to provide reg. details

 

eg Avdata were contracted by many airports in the 90/00's to collect landing fees but requests for information were rarely if ever responded to.

 

 

[kasper]

Kasperif someone with a legal right needs to know the address of my aircraft then they will have access through the RAAus.

Doesn't cut it

 

AUF/RAAus have history here - refusing to provide reg. details

 

eg Avdata were contracted by many airports in the 90/00's to collect landing fees but requests for information were rarely if ever responded to.

avdata do not have a legal right so im happy AUF said thanks but no thanks.

Im talking about legal obligations like CASA and ATSB investigators.

 

I know a lot of threads end up talking about changing outcomes by changing underlying behaviours and I think the issue of landing fees is in that category.

 

If you have a landing fee honesty system that allows simple payment then you will probably find a better behaviour from pilots in making payment - it does work in other countries and the 'community' of pilots tend to promote voluntary payment ...

 

 

[facthunter]

I think the renewal of the RAAus had a tick box re giving out member's details. You had to agree for them to do it. Pretty difficult getting drivers/rego/car details. PRIVACY given consideration there. Nev

 

 

[Dwilly]

I say that would not be true. Reason:- By now we would have something leaked to confirm that suspicion.More to the point these stupid teaching from Harvard. Everything must make a profit and how that profit formula is calculated.

Public services and infrastructure formation and running of them is paid for by tax.

 

Sad to say our tax is going to every other things but where it is supposed to be spent.

 

This user pays idea for public services and infrastructure is a way our governments, are trying to rip us off more.

 

What are we paying our taxes for.?????????????????????????????

 

KP

Welfare

 

 

[Keith Page]

Welfare

How will that grow a nation, as I see the situation the nation is shrinking because of that process.

KP.

 

 

[facthunter]

We are addressing the airport fund in the Canberra area. If some group want to establish one . It's been long considered a good idea. You don't want to be mixing it with RPT at the level of Canberra airport traffic even if you could. It would serve the whole area which needs one for the times when the weather prevents safe flight through to the coast and return as well as convenience to the locals for the normal reasons Access and cost. Cheap poor country and a lot of work. Nev

 

 

[bull]

We are addressing the airport fund in the Canberra area. If some group want to establish one . It's been long considered a good idea. You don't want to be mixing it with RPT at the level of Canberra airport traffic even if you could. It would serve the whole area which needs one for the times when the weather prevents safe flight through to the coast and return as well as convenience to the locals for the normal reasons Access and cost. Cheap poor country and a lot of work. Nev

That's all and dandy facty, but why should someone who flys from a dirt strip in the middle of nowhere ,and is very happy doing so ,have to pay via increased membership fees etc for the rich boys club to have a nice clubhouse and airstrip so our illustrious leaders of raa can puff out their chest and strut around and tell us all how good they are and all the wonderful things they have done for raa???????????

 

 

[coljones]

How will that grow a nation, as I see the situation the nation is shrinking because of that process.KP.

It keeps old age pensioners off the street, just!

 

 

[coljones]

That's all and dandy facty, but why should someone who flys from a dirt strip in the middle of nowhere ,and is very happy doing so ,have to pay via increased membership fees etc for the rich boys club to have a nice clubhouse and airstrip so our illustrious leaders of raa can puff out their chest and strut around and tell us all how good they are and all the wonderful things they have done for raa???????????

Keith has identified a problem in that a lot of strips have become inaccessible. No matter what RAA does or doesn't do about buying into a facility there will continue to be problems of maintaining the access that we have. My local strip is about 70 ks away but I have also heard, here, of people having to travel 3 hours or more to commit flying. We need to open a conversation about airstrip access. Some of the issues are stupid councils forgetting why they are there, mining companies, having bought the strip, running scared about liability (or just being pricks) or because the locals are sick and tired of ultralights (and others) not paying landing fees or lying about who they are. We might not agree with Mike but we do need to have a conversation otherwise we might find that we take off and find we can't land anywhere including wherever took off from.

 

 

[Keith Page]

These mining companies get me. When the coal leases were granted there were agreements. One agreement was develop and maintain infrastructure, over the years they have been able to wriggle out of these agreements. Their profits are in some tax haven because of their company arrangements, the Queensland premier of the day was awake to those schemes hence the infrastructure arrangement/agreement deals. Buy and sell through their own companies quite legal but not good for Australia.These current day wags would not know if they were on fire till they were very hot.

 

KP

 

 

[facthunter]

Bull, I didn't and don't suggest the RAAus get involved in "funding" a strip near Canberra . Other individuals have privately attempted to do that and I have supported them morally, and a bit of effort at least, in the past. I'm not one who sees having an office in Canberra as ESSENTIAL to the functioning of the RAAus at all in this day of information mobility. The function of the strip was not connected to the head office location at all. People don't fly little recreational planes in to get to meetings in reality and the only reliable way is to fly commercial if you have a need to be there and back at specific times, and not stranded by weather I don't suggest it be moved to some imaginary pilot demographic centre with an Oskosh style appearance/feel either at the moment . Just clearing that up, I hope. Nev

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

i don't know the Canberra area very well but reading posts about the need for an airport to service RAA and light GA aircraft seems a good move.

 

Raaus could be a shareholder with private money for development.

 

Perhaps service facilities company's would inject?

 

Hanger sites.

 

Air park

 

Etc.

 

 

[facthunter]

I would consider investing in a "particular" aerodrome, especially the Canberra area under the current circumstances, not a business the RAAus should indulge in without expecting some backlash, especially if they didn't canvass the idea extensively with the members. I support the idea as an individual but I wouldn't use it much . It's for the LOCALS to fund and support, primarily, same as any other part of Australia.. Location of head office in Canberra will no doubt be a matter considered and possibly reviewed over time. Nev

 

 

[Downunder]

i don't know the Canberra area very well but reading posts about the need for an airport to service RAA and light GA aircraft seems a good move.Raaus could be a shareholder with private money for development.

Perhaps service facilities company's would inject?

 

Hanger sites.

 

Air park

 

Etc.

Probably better for the RAA to support and advise a company or organisation wanting to develop something rather than get involved themselves.

 

Someone may have already looked at something and couldn't see a return on investment or saw better oportunities elsewhere.

 

Australia is not exactly glowing with economic fervour at the moment.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Australia is in a bad position for investment. People want a return on their investment which is a correct attitude.

 

However the capital out lay is so great and people want a return which is far too large for the situation.

 

Gone are the days where people were satisfied with about 2% return now it is more like 10% they are after and the capital value of things is far too high.

 

So with the high capital value and high percentage return no one will be able to afford these economic situation.

 

There will have to be a correction of some type -- Australia will not be able to survive with everything on an a steep uphill curve.

 

See business is trying to drive wages down but what about the capital value of the goods of life. People need money to buy these things if wages go down and the rest stays up guess what - looks like a lot of poverty will happen.

 

KP.

 

 

[timb]

"because the locals are sick and tired of ultralights (and others) not paying landing fees or lying about who they are"

 

And there you have it in a nutshell

 

BTW Kasper, Avdata were acting as agents for the airports in question. If you want to hide behind the privacy screen I suggest you don't go on to other people's property.

 

We tried the Honesty Box - all it contained were cobwebs

 

There are plenty of organisations that can access your motor vehicle rego details.

 

 

[David Isaac]

That's all and dandy facty, but why should someone who flys from a dirt strip in the middle of nowhere ,and is very happy doing so ,have to pay via increased membership fees etc for the rich boys club to have a nice clubhouse and airstrip so our illustrious leaders of raa can puff out their chest and strut around and tell us all how good they are and all the wonderful things they have done for raa???????????

I agree,

If we wont airstrips and club houses then form local clubs and buy one, that way only those that use it pay for it. I certainly don't want to be paying for something I cannot ultimately benefit from.

 

 

[David Isaac]

i don't know the Canberra area very well but reading posts about the need for an airport to service RAA and light GA aircraft seems a good move.Raaus could be a shareholder with private money for development.

Perhaps service facilities company's would inject?

 

Hanger sites.

 

Air park

 

Etc.

Not if it will result in an increase in my membership fees and I wont be using it.

 

 

[kasper]

"because the locals are sick and tired of ultralights (and others) not paying landing fees or lying about who they are"And there you have it in a nutshell

 

BTW Kasper, Avdata were acting as agents for the airports in question. If you want to hide behind the privacy screen I suggest you don't go on to other people's property.

 

We tried the Honesty Box - all it contained were cobwebs

 

There are plenty of organisations that can access your motor vehicle rego details.

1. If people are lying about who they are then clearly they got in touch somehow.

2. As I said an honesty box can work IF the behaviour changes. Never said they work always but if the behaviour is encouraged they can work.

 

And for the record I have always paid my landing fees except for the two times I landed due to equipment failure - and in both of those cases the local policy was if it's flying in for repair or under failure they are waived.

 

If airfield owners/operators chose to outsource fee collection to an organisation that from the outset knew that they cannot access the registration data of a VERY large group of rev aircraft that does get out n about AND they do not have an alternate on the ground option to pay then frankly it's a crap setup and demanding access to all owner details on an open basis is not an acceptable outcome.

 

A more logical way would be to negotiate access to a set of RAAus aircraft details where the owner has elected to provide it as a fee for service system.

 

The new RAAus it backend should be able to flag yes/no to access easily and any development cost to allow an avdata access account is covered by the fee for service.

 

Not rocket science and for the record I'm not hiding behind anything but my full name and contact address fully accessible to anyone with details of the fact I own 3-5 aircraft is a really nice planning tool for any scroat with burglary on their mind

 

 

[facthunter]

Indications are that light aircraft (GA and other) activity is NOT growing at the moment, (surprise, surprise) so investing in an airport might not be very profitable, but we are losing access to airports and costs are spiralling at most of them so is it part of a vicious circle?. Airports near built up areas serve those centres and should be considered an asset for them as AIRPORTS bringing some business and safety with access by air ambulance fire fighting PLANES etc. In most cases the developers are waiting to cover it with shopping centres, Mc Mansions and narrow roads. which can actually go anywhere whereas an airport has specific needs for location. Flat, drained and not pointing at hills, or in a foggy valley. Nev

 

 

[Keith Page]

Yes Nev, One vicious circle and the ones in the middle of the circle have no foresight. So we might be in this mess for a long time.

 

The only way out for some of these airport operators is sell the land to a developer. (Regulators should step with a "No".)

 

The biggest interests for our governments is bring in foreign owners and that pushes the prices up.

 

If the governments stood firm and said, this is to stay in Australian control that would stop the rot of these massive capital value increases.

 

Only to be sold to Australian in Australia.

 

Look at the fiasco with the home units in Sydney foreign money pushing those values up and Australians can not afford them.

 

KP.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Yes Nev, One vicious circle and the ones in the middle of the circle have no foresight. So we might be in this mess for a long time.The only way out for some of these airport operators is sell the land to a developer. (Regulators should step with a "No".)

The biggest interests for our governments is bring in foreign owners and that pushes the prices up.

 

If the governments stood firm and said, this is to stay in Australian control that would stop the rot of these massive capital value increases.

 

Only to be sold to Australian in Australia.

 

Look at the fiasco with the home units in Sydney foreign money pushing those values up and Australians can not afford them.

 

KP.

Yes Keith all in the pursuit of the mighty dollar, margins and share value with no foresight for the long term consequences. Not limited to Australia, the same thing is happening in NZ and Canada.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Indications are that light aircraft (GA and other) activity is NOT growing at the moment, (surprise, surprise) so investing in an airport might not be very profitable, but we are losing access to airports and costs are spiralling at most of them so is it part of a vicious circle?. Airports near built up areas serve those centres and should be considered an asset for them as AIRPORTS bringing some business and safety with access by air ambulance fire fighting PLANES etc. In most cases the developers are waiting to cover it with shopping centres, Mc Mansions and narrow roads. which can actually go anywhere whereas an airport has specific needs for location. Flat, drained and not pointing at hills, or in a foggy valley. Nev

The biggest factor by far has been the development, efficiency, and low cost of the airlines. They've blown the interstate coach business into extinction, the overland rail systems are impoverished through low patronage, but, based on official Moorabbin movements, the GA cross section is only down by around 30%. It could do better with some re-marketing and some new blood.

The new price of a Cessna 172 at around $370,000 is not a lot more than the 1960 cost based on average take home pay, and it's heartening to see a few operators putting on new equipment. Nobody wants to rent 40 yo cars and the same applies to aircraft. The industry is in need of a few entrepreneurs like Arthur Schmitt. He flew all over Australia selling Cessnas, and from time to time would drop in to our paddock to see if we would part with some cash. The other opening is for low cost feeder services to the smaller country towns.

 

Just needs marketing skills.

 

 

[facthunter]

When you go into it the LOW cost FEEDER services don't exist. The seat cost/mile is too high. The "newer " 200+ seaters just kill the equipment used for the regionals, and the customers can't see why the difference is so great and think they are getting ripped off. Nev