Advanced Pilot Award endorsement

[kasper]

And of course it's not available to EVERY pilot .... it's only available to group A or 3axis group. Not weightshift. Not ppc. Not combined control. Not footlaunch.

 

So maybe it was thought up as a revenue exercise by a group of instructors who were (sarcasm here) primarily starting to teach in very expensive 3axis aircraft and thought this might be a wheeze to get a few more hours at instructing rates on the nice new aircraft.

 

 

[Camel]

And of course it's not available to EVERY pilot .... it's only available to group A or 3axis group. Not weightshift. Not ppc. Not combined control. Not footlaunch.So maybe it was thought up as a revenue exercise by a group of instructors who were (sarcasm here) primarily starting to teach in very expensive 3axis aircraft and thought this might be a wheeze to get a few more hours at instructing rates on the nice new aircraft.

Point taken, as a trike pilot, I see no harm for a trike pilot to learn three axis and three axis pilot should learn two axis seat of your pants flying to appreciate the skill required. And in a perfect world pilots should learn to fly gliders and aerobatics. APA is no badge of honour just training. I've also met revenue raising instructors and I don't go back again, the majority of instructors I've had have been fantastic.

 

I like everything that flies !

 

 

[Camel]

Had a glider lesson too, only one ! Had a ball.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Had a glider lesson too, only one ! Had a ball.

Gliders are really cool.

 

 

[kasper]

Much easier than having the RAAus become the microlight organisation for the FAI that then would allow ANY RAAus pilot to go for proficiency awards called the colibri that come in bronze - silver - gold. Bit hard though ... these awards are drafted around old lower performance aircraft. Feel comfy switching the engine off at 1000ft above the runway execute a 360 turn and touch down within 10m of the pre-nominated landing point in a plastic fantastic? No? Well it's an absolute doddle in a drifter thruster or most weightshift And of course we could all try for FAI world records.

 

But that would be usuful.

 

 

[Yenn]

How can we have proficiency at steep lazy eights and steep stalls, when we are not legally able to do steep turns? I think the max bank angle is either 45 or 60 degrees. Not really steep. Only an increase of 40 percent in stall speed.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Thanks for your feedback guys.....interesting discussion . Surprised by the amount of negative comments regarding this course. Has anyone here actually done it or taught it? With driving a car you, you can do an advanced drivers course to really improve the skills you learn from just driving around, as well as skills you don't learn from just driving around. I was hoping the advanced pilot course would be something similar.

 

So how does one add to the basic skills learn't during the pilot certificate course other than fly around the training area doing more steep turns, touch and go's etc. Aerobatics course? I love learning and want to continue to develop my skills and confidence in flying.

 

 

[M61A1]

Thanks for your feedback guys.....interesting discussion . Surprised by the amount of negative comments regarding this course. Has anyone here actually done it or taught it? With driving a car you, you can do an advanced drivers course to really improve the skills you learn from just driving around, as well as skills you don't learn from just driving around. I was hoping the advanced pilot course would be something similar.So how does one add to the basic skills learn't during the pilot certificate course other than fly around the training area doing more steep turns, touch and go's etc. Aerobatics course? I love learning and want to continue to develop my skills and confidence in flying.

I think that the point some were making is that you should have been taught what they refer to as "advanced" during you pilot cert. There is nothing stopping you going out and practising what you have been taught rather than just flying from A to B and back to A.

Some of the most fun flying I do is when I don't go anywhere and just hammer out circuits landing and taking off on one wheel then the other, power on stalls, power off stalls, hanging off the prop at the slowest I can go while stopping it from spinning with rudder. Medium turns, steep turns with rapid reversals, wingovers (legal of course), lazy eights. Simulating control failures, flying approaches with nothing but rudder and power, the list of things you can do is almost endless.

 

I was under the impression the Advanced Pilot thingy was more an assessment rather than a course.

 

Not everything you do needs to be done with an instructor, you can go out and practise what you are taught, and that will build good experience. If you don't feel confident doing it without an instructor, go out and do it with an instructor until you feel confident, then keep current when ever you are out by yourself.

 

There are places where you can learn aerobatics, or even just upset recovery or unusual attitude recovery (whatever they want to call it)

 

 

[M61A1]

Much easier than having the RAAus become the microlight organisation for the FAI that then would allow ANY RAAus pilot to go for proficiency awards called the colibri that come in bronze - silver - gold. Bit hard though ... these awards are drafted around old lower performance aircraft. Feel comfy switching the engine off at 1000ft above the runway execute a 360 turn and touch down within 10m of the pre-nominated landing point in a plastic fantastic? No? Well it's an absolute doddle in a drifter thruster or most weightshift And of course we could all try for FAI world records. But that would be usuful.

One thing I haven't seen at a fly-in for years is just a simple spot landing comp. Three attempts, the last without power.

 

 

[robinsm]

An award is not going to make you any safer, you should have done all this stuff before you got your certificate. Once you have your certificate, you should be practicing this stuff anyway. A bit of paper isnt going to make you an expert, it may satisfy your ego but thats about it. More expence for RAA Aus with bug..ger all return. Mini GA and ego land here we come...

 

 

[farri]

ADVANCED PILOT AWARD ENDORSEMENT (APA)

 

 

 

SYLLABUS OF FLIGHT TRAINING - ISSUE 7 – OCTOBER 2014

 

UNIT 1.07 – ADVANCED PILOT AWARD SYLLABUS

 

 

I don`t see anything mentioned about the type of aircraft being or to be flown, in that syllabus. All aircraft obey the same laws of physics but not all aircraft perform equally.

 

Just a bit of my history, for those who don`t know!.....I have flown over a dozen different types of Ultralights and I instructed for 12 years, with my Austflight Drifter, first on behalf of our local club, the F.N.Q.Q.U.A., then through my own AUF and CAA approved flying school, here off our property. I instructed that syllabus and It didn`t need to be written into the ops manual, it`s what I expected of those I instructed to be able to do.

 

In my opinion, there isn`t much point or use in teaching the syllabus in a modern LSA, to a pilot flying a 95-10 aircraft! Anyone who really knows how to fly an Austflight Drifter, to it`s full potential,will know, what can be safely done in the Drifter is vastly different to what can be safely done in an LSA....Is the Syllabus about teaching better pilot skills or is it to add more words to the RA-Aus ops manual?.......Smile SSCBD!

 

Frank.

 

 

 

[kasper]

ADVANCED PILOT AWARD ENDORSEMENT (APA) 

 

SYLLABUS OF FLIGHT TRAINING - ISSUE 7 – OCTOBER 2014

 

UNIT 1.07 – ADVANCED PILOT AWARD SYLLABUS

 

 

I don`t see anything mentioned about the type of aircraft being or to be flown, in that syllabus. All aircraft obey the same laws of physics but not all aircraft perform equally.

 

Just a bit of my history, for those who don`t know!.....I have flown over a dozen different types of Ultralights and I instructed for 12 years, with my Austflight Drifter, first on behalf of our local club, the F.N.Q.Q.U.A., then through my own AUF and CAA approved flying school, here off our property. I instructed that syllabus and It didn`t need to be written into the ops manual, it`s what I expected of those I instructed to be able to do.

 

In my opinion, there isn`t much point or use in teaching the syllabus in a modern LSA, to a pilot flying a 95-10 aircraft! Anyone who really knows how to fly an Austflight Drifter, to it`s full potential,will know, what can be safely done in the Drifter is vastly different to what can be safely done in an LSA....Is the Syllabus about teaching better pilot skills or is it to add more words to the RA-Aus ops manual?.......Smile SSCBD!

 

Frank.

Ops 2.04 page 48 of the document.

This is what the ops manager intended

 

As the manual then goes on and groups A and B together AND lists as an available endorsement for both the APA your guess as good as mine.

 

But for group C D and F it's easy - D does not list it so not available and as the ops manager in her wisdom actually did not include anything at all on C or F if you have those ratings your home free due to what I call glaring incompetence on the part of your dear ops manager.

 

 

[farri]

As a scout veteran you should automatically qualify. Not being rude at all.

Wheeler Scout????

 

If we were already there, then it couldn't get worse....I have seen the future, I work there, it will get worse, and RAAus isn't there just yet. But they want to be.

I don`t know if they want to be, but unfortunately! These days we all have a duty of care to protect everyone, mostly from themselves, so, RA-Aus has to be seen to be doing just that.

 

 

[farri]

[kasper]

Two things for a group B aircraft.

 

1. It's impossible to maintain slipped flight so you can't demonstrate that part of 1.07 of the syllabus therefore you should not be signed off for the APA as a group B aircraft

 

2. A lazy 8 is an aerobatic maneuver consisting of 1/4 looping up, wingover (left or right), 1/2 looping down+up, wingover (right or left), 1/4 looping down. Apart from it being an aerobatic manoeuvre Group B do not have a rudder to do a precise wingover and trust us we REALLY do not want weight shift pilots trying this sort of manioc our as it incredibly dangerous because for us Neg G or slow turning manouvoures while nose up airspeed decaying is an absolute classic way to kill yourself theou tumble entry.

 

Te APA as written is written for a three axis aircraft. Didn't attempt it in a trike.

 

 

[SSCBD]

Wheeler Scout????

 

I don`t know if they want to be, but unfortunately! These days we all have a duty of care to protect everyone, mostly from themselves, so, RA-Aus has to be seen to be doing just that.

yes - wheeler scout

 

 

[farri]

yes - wheeler scout

Then, as I`ve sucessfully flown the Wheeler Scout, I must automatically qualify???......

 

Wonder how many on here have flown the Wheeler Scout.

 

 

[M61A1]

Wheeler Scout????

 

I don`t know if they want to be, but unfortunately! These days we all have a duty of care to protect everyone, mostly from themselves, so, RA-Aus has to be seen to be doing just that.

I think the last part of that hits the nail on the head....That's all their safety system is....being seen to have done something. With the goal being to cover their backsides.

 

 

[M61A1]

2. A lazy 8 is an aerobatic maneuver consisting of 1/4 looping up, wingover (left or right), 1/2 looping down+up, wingover (right or left), 1/4 looping down. Apart from it being an aerobatic manoeuvre Group B do not have a rudder to do a precise wingover and trust us we REALLY do not want weight shift pilots trying this sort of manioc our as it incredibly dangerous because for us Neg G or slow turning manouvoures while nose up airspeed decaying is an absolute classic way to kill yourself theou tumble entry.

Te APA as written is written for a three axis aircraft. Didn't attempt it in a trike.

While I agree in regards to your comments about weightshift and certain manoeuvres, it's is my understanding the 'cut and pastes' below describe how such thing may be carried out under our current rules.

 

Lazy Eight

 

Like the Chandelle, the Lazy Eight is not a competition maneuver but is required for the power commercial pilot test. The aerobatics version of the Lazy Eight is two wingovers back to back. The FAA commercial pilot version is similar but the maximum bank is only 45 degrees instead of 90 degrees. The name Lazy Eight comes from the fact that the nose of the airplane is following a figure 8 on its side on the horizon

 

Introduction: Wingover

 

• 180° reversal in the direction of flight through the vertical
  Combines a climbing turn for 90°, and a smooth descending turn for 90° but with a 180° heading change
   
   
  

 

 

[*]The nose will never exceed 45° up and down or 2.0-Gs; it is very slow and gentle, developing the ability to smoothly control the aircraft in balanced flight, through constantly changing attitudes and airspeeds

 

[*]Performed in opposing pairs

 

[*]Can be used as a clearing turn

 

[*]The maneuver is very slow and gentle

 

[*]The roll rate should be constant through the maneuver

 

[*]Note that you never exceed 45° nose up

 

 

[kasper]

While I agree in regards to your comments about weightshift and certain manoeuvres, it's is my understanding the 'cut and pastes' below describe how such thing may be carried out under our current rules.Lazy Eight

 

Like the Chandelle, the Lazy Eight is not a competition maneuver but is required for the power commercial pilot test. The aerobatics version of the Lazy Eight is two wingovers back to back. The FAA commercial pilot version is similar but the maximum bank is only 45 degrees instead of 90 degrees. The name Lazy Eight comes from the fact that the nose of the airplane is following a figure 8 on its side on the horizon

 

Introduction: Wingover

 

• 180° reversal in the direction of flight through the vertical
  Combines a climbing turn for 90°, and a smooth descending turn for 90° but with a 180° heading change
   
   
  

 

 

[*]The nose will never exceed 45° up and down or 2.0-Gs; it is very slow and gentle, developing the ability to smoothly control the aircraft in balanced flight, through constantly changing attitudes and airspeeds

 

[*]Performed in opposing pairs

 

[*]Can be used as a clearing turn

 

[*]The maneuver is very slow and gentle

 

[*]The roll rate should be constant through the maneuver

 

[*]Note that you never exceed 45° nose up

OK so in a 3 axis it may be possible to do what is a non-aerobatic lazy eight - but it would be nice to have a definition in the RAAus documentation that defines it particularly as 'copy and paste' from other internet places supports the AEROBATIC origins of the manourvre - eg look at wikipeadia

 

And even though a Group B aircraft could do the non-aero version of the lazy eight it still cannot mantain slipped flight as requried so it remains impossible for weightshift aircraft to complete the current APA

 

And nothing addresses the logical reason for the existance of the APA in the first instance ... particularly as its basically the pilots certificate with a lazy eight added ... if its supposed to be a safety demonstrator or skills improver hard to see IMO how this adds. We already have 2 year flight reviews that cover maintenance of core skills and the APA does nto apply to 3 of the aircraft groupings in the RAAus fleet.

 

The cynic in me sees that the GA licence has had this added and rather than just tack that onto the RAAus piltos certificate in their ever increasing GA-ification of RAAus they have created an 'endorsement' that does what? endorse you to do WHAT?

 

All the other endorsements are aimed at allowing you to do something you could not do before you held the endorsement - this one is in my opinion a great big JOKE.

 

 

[Yenn]

The good thing about the advanced pilot award is that it will get you doing all those manoeuvres for practice. That must be good. Who has attained the advanced status?

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's the Ego Endorsement Kasper; a great way to boost FTF income.

[M61A1]

OK so in a 3 axis it may be possible to do what is a non-aerobatic lazy eight - but it would be nice to have a definition in the RAAus documentation that defines it particularly as 'copy and paste' from other internet places supports the AEROBATIC origins of the manourvre - eg look at wikipeadiaAnd even though a Group B aircraft could do the non-aero version of the lazy eight it still cannot mantain slipped flight as requried so it remains impossible for weightshift aircraft to complete the current APA

 

And nothing addresses the logical reason for the existance of the APA in the first instance ... particularly as its basically the pilots certificate with a lazy eight added ... if its supposed to be a safety demonstrator or skills improver hard to see IMO how this adds. We already have 2 year flight reviews that cover maintenance of core skills and the APA does nto apply to 3 of the aircraft groupings in the RAAus fleet.

 

The cynic in me sees that the GA licence has had this added and rather than just tack that onto the RAAus piltos certificate in their ever increasing GA-ification of RAAus they have created an 'endorsement' that does what? endorse you to do WHAT?

 

All the other endorsements are aimed at allowing you to do something you could not do before you held the endorsement - this one is in my opinion a great big JOKE.

I agree completely.

My comment was just to ensure that it was understood by all that those manoeuvres mentioned are actually permitted, and can be practised if desired.

 

That said, I don't see how it is an endorsement or a course, just an award. I was taught that stuff as part of a pilot cert, and don't see how it is "advanced".

 

 

[facthunter]

' I'm not sure that what some of us oldies were taught back then when we had the right planes to do it in, and different rules, is as relevant as we might wish it to be. For instance, unless something's changed, teaching actual spirals in RAAus planes is not permitted. The Gazelle is particularly vulnerable to risk with critical airspeed and dynamic loading factors, altrhough it's very doclle and easily managed generally.

 

. I don't like to be in a position of defending the APA, but I can't argue about any process where someone who wishes to, may go a bit further than the norm, by choice not compulsion. If it excludes some TYPES of flying machines, that may deserve looking into, but there will always be limitations applying. Gliders present for instance opportunities to do things one can't do in a RAAus plane and are actually required knowledge and skills base.

 

An RAAus instructor SHOULD be skilled to recover from unusual attitudes and spins and spirals and have demonstrated all the skills and the thorough knowledge of all aspects of low level flight.NO exceptions. How else could she/he handle the possible situations that may arise in the "normal" course of instructing people under any conditions that might occur. Basic common sense here if we are talking about REAL safety measures. Nev

 

 

[SSCBD]

I do know of many naughty things done in thrusters. Many years ago before we had real rules and people we friendly .

 

I have watched a old VHS tape doing three loops continuously with smoke cans on each wing tip. Out the back blocks of NSW. CASA or DOT back then I think, somehow got a copy of the VHS tape somewhere of it, but never found out who or is it whom did this act of committing aviation?

 

As they, the air police (CASA, DOT whatever ) thought is was not possible when they wrote the rules.

 

They were stunned, is the polite way to put it when they first saw it.

 

No rego numbers or transponders OR phone cameras were around then - thank Christ.

 

Now of course we are all to proper and would not to do such things.

 

Note to all. I believe the pilot, to the best of my memory ( hearsay your honour) was aerobatics endorsed in GA.