Advanced Pilot Award endorsement

[kasper]

I do know of many naughty things done in thrusters. Many years ago before we had real rules and people we friendly .I have watched a old VHS tape doing three loops continuously with smoke cans on each wing tip. Out the back blocks of NSW. CASA or DOT back then I think, somehow got a copy of the VHS tape somewhere of it, but never found out who or is it whom did this act of committing aviation?

As they, the air police (CASA, DOT whatever ) thought is was not possible when they wrote the rules.

 

They were stunned, is the polite way to put it when they first saw it.

 

No rego numbers or transponders OR phone cameras were around then - thank Christ.

 

Now of course we are all to proper and would not to do such things.

 

Note to all. I believe the pilot, to the best of my memory ( hearsay your honour) was aerobatics endorsed in GA.

Yes, it's quite amazing what happened behind hills or clouds years ago with those lovely planes of the 80's and early 90's

 

 

[facthunter]

I wouldn't be doing antics at any speed in anything under 8G ultimate factor. Back in those days folks a lot died. U/L's were regarded generally as the realm of the suicidal or reckless. We carry on a bit now when someone dies, but if we are going to be consistent and want a better regarded past time we have to work on it not wish a return to the past where we only recall the best parts. Just about anything legal to fly was VH compliant and a real pain to get into the air. Druine Turbulent etc Plus the Autogyros, Benson? that sprung up everywhere with Triumph alloy twin motors etc Most probably never legal or safe. The drag of a Thruster would be a real limit on its ability to do aeros. It's a lift, thrust, drag, thing. With a lightweight pilot and new condition a single seat 447 powered may be OK but I didn't say that. You need to know what you are doing and have the height to start with and a full structural evaluation. Maybe one day???? With flying the better you do things , the luckier you are. Nev

 

 

[SSCBD]

' I'm not sure that what some of us oldies were taught back then when we had the right planes to do it in, and different rules, is as relevant as we might wish it to be. For instance, unless something's changed, teaching actual spirals in RAAus planes is not permitted. The Gazelle is particularly vulnerable to risk with critical airspeed and dynamic loading factors, altrhough it's very doclle and easily managed generally.. I don't like to be in a position of defending the APA, but I can't argue about any process where someone who wishes to, may go a bit further than the norm, by choice not compulsion. If it excludes some TYPES of flying machines, that may deserve looking into, but there will always be limitations applying. Gliders present for instance opportunities to do things one can't do in a RAAus plane and are actually required knowledge and skills base.

An RAAus instructor SHOULD be skilled to recover from unusual attitudes and spins and spirals and have demonstrated all the skills and the thorough knowledge of all aspects of low level flight.NO exceptions. How else could she/he handle the possible situations that may arise in the "normal" course of instructing people under any conditions that might occur. Basic common sense here if we are talking about REAL safety measures. Nev

You think wouldn't you!

 

I wouldn't be doing antics at any speed in anything under 8G ultimate factor. Back in those days folks a lot died. U/L's were regarded generally as the realm of the suicidal or reckless. We carry on a bit now when someone dies, but if we are going to be consistent and want a better regarded past time we have to work on it not wish a return to the past where we only recall the best parts. Just about anything legal to fly was VH compliant and a real pain to get into the air. Druine Turbulent etc Plus the Autogyros, Benson? that sprung up everywhere with Triumph alloy twin motors etc Most probably never legal or safe. The drag of a Thruster would be a real limit on its ability to do aeros. It's a lift, thrust, drag, thing. With a lightweight pilot and new condition a single seat 447 powered may be OK but I didn't say that. You need to know what you are doing and have the height to start with and a full structural evaluation. Maybe one day???? With flying the better you do things , the luckier you are. Nev

Nev - Re the thruster - Thanks for the sermon, experience and education with your wisdom again. For your specific information and enlightenment the thruster did very well with aerobatics and you are incorrect about people dying doing this. To be fair in thrusters and only a few did aeros back in the day, yes bit soggy in places, but you work with what you have. And by the way, the two seat thruster did IT very well to. Just to update your information with people that actually know and were there, and all structurally survived.

 

I also did not suggest anyone today go near this type of flying in these machines.

 

That's also why the department had a bit of a hissy fit way back when they also thought the drag would not allow it, but like others they were wrong. Surprise!

 

 

[SSCBD]

Then, as I`ve sucessfully flown the Wheeler Scout, I must automatically qualify???......Wonder how many on here have flown the Wheeler Scout.

Frank - you are way above a mere mortal award - You are a - God of the AIR - A Veteran - and have done the most as far as I know to promote sport flying to so many people in far north Qld over how many years?. And you are still doing it on your terms, you old bastard. Smile.

 

 

[facthunter]

SSCBD, I'm not trying to give you a sermon. I doubt you read what I said carefully or you wouldn't read into it what you have. An old Thruster doesn't fly very well with slack coverings and I've done a lot of aeros in underpowered draggy planes, and you are seriously limited in what you can do when they are like that unless you can cut a lot of weight or add some power, or you just accept there are some things they won't do well or at all. Thrusters weren't around at the time I'm referring to. I'd like to be able to write my opinion (that's all it is) without being accused of "wisdom" and giving sermons etc Give it a break and let's stick to facts as we see them and be nice to each other. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Back in those days folks a lot died. U/L's were regarded generally as the realm of the suicidal or reckless. Nev

Nev, With all due respect to you, back in those days when I started instructing, from memory, I recall, out of 39 fatal accidents that had occurred previously, 36 were GA pilots who thought they knew how to fly Ultralights.

 

Facts

 

John Brandon: Post #306 29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

 

From January 2013 to May 2015...Out of 25 aircraft involved

 

1, Thruster

 

2, Drifters.

 

2, Tecnam.

 

2,Savannah.

 

3, Airbourne XT912 Trikes.

 

15, Different types.

 

So what are Ultralights regarded these days?...I sincerely hope that 2017 will be a better year.

 

Frank.

 

Ps, I am trying to be friendly....... Now I`m going for my last flight in the Drifter, for 2016.

 

 

[farri]

Frank - you are way above a mere mortal award - You are a - God of the AIR - A Veteran - and have done the most as far as I know to promote sport flying to so many people in far north Qld over how many years?. And you are still doing it on your terms, you old bastard. Smile.

SSCBD, Way back when I and a few guys like me were trying to establish legal twin seat Ultralight instruction, up here in far North Queensland, you were the one who assisted us to make it happen, without you, it may never have happened....... I`ve always acknowledged that..... You are partly responsible,for the number of people I have introduced into sport flying.........You also, are a veteran of the AUF/RA-Aus and they should award you the recognition you justly deserve....... you younger than me,old bastard....Smile!!!....

 

Frank,

 

Ps, By the way, I am smiling broadly....

 

 

[facthunter]

Happy new year all. We have arrived at 2017.

 

Just to try to clear something up. None of those planes listed were considered in my reference. It was long before they were designed or available. I'm not referring to the period 2000+ (2013) or anything like it, never did, so what has that got to do with it? I am always happy to defend what I write and be corrected when needed but I referred to Druine turbulent and benson autogyros as the period I was referencing. Back in the 50's where it had to be GA approved or nothing. Anything different was illegal This is when people died that I mention in my reference, particularly the gyros. Nev

 

 

[farri]

I'm not referring to the period 2000+ (2013) or anything like it, never did, so what has that got to do with it? Nev

I`m aware of that! For me, what it has to do with it, is, has the situation really changed that much?

 

Back in those days folks a lot died. U/L's were regarded generally as the realm of the suicidal or reckless. Nev

I`ve quoted you again to help me make my point! My post #56 above, is in reference to that statement! What I`ve tried to portray is, with all the improved Ultralight and LSA designs, supposedly better pilot training and evermore regulations! To use your words, "Folks, A Lot Have Died."

 

 

Frank,

 

Ps, Happy New Year eveyone! All the very best to you all.....Give it your best shot and take care.

 

 

[coljones]

Nev, With all due respect to you, back in those days when I started instructing, from memory, I recall, out of 39 fatal accidents that had occurred previously, 36 were GA pilots who thought they knew how to fly Ultralights.Facts

 

John Brandon: Post #306 29 RA-Aus deaths in 29 months

 

From January 2013 to May 2015...Out of 25 aircraft involved

 

1, Thruster

 

2, Drifters.

 

2, Tecnam.

 

2,Savannah.

 

3, Airbourne XT912 Trikes.

 

15, Different types.

 

So what are Ultralights regarded these days?...I sincerely hope that 2017 will be a better year.

 

Frank.

 

Ps, I am trying to be friendly....... Now I`m going for my last flight in the Drifter, for 2016.

Interesting stats but you can only draw inferences from this data if you know how many planes of each type exist. If there is only 1 Super Fandangle on the register and it has a prang and the occupants die then the death rate for that aircraft is at least 100% - but the numbers are really too small be firm in one's conclusions. 3 axis planes don't have these sort of accident rates. There are 3 addition data sets required to make serious assumptions. 1. The number of this type of plane, 2. The number of hours flown and 3. The number of movements (takeoffs/landings). If you want fine grain details you might also add whether the plane was owner maintained, mate maintained or L2 or higher maintained.No death is a good death but you need decent stats to work on the faults.

 

 

[farri]

the numbers are really too small be firm in one's conclusions.

The firm conclusion to me, is the number who have died! The reason is another matter.

 

 

[facthunter]

Yes, you must compare apples with apples to have a valid figure. Base it on hours flown, landings done per accident or whatever is more suited. Deaths/ year would have to refer to some other baseline if there was a large discrepancy with say total hours. There might be a period of bad weather related accidents etc or more hours flown

 

Today we do have a fairly large array of accepted designs with a fair amount known about their "quality, flying characteristics etc). Aging of the planes may change a few factors and introduce a few unknowns. Example.. unavailability of some two stroke motors and parts for them. Reduction of knowledge of how to use them and service same. Stale fuel, deteriorated skins, rigging not right. Plane only used a few times in a year. General neglect. Nev

 

 

[Stoney]

Thanks for your feedback guys.....interesting discussion . Surprised by the amount of negative comments regarding this course. Has anyone here actually done it or taught it? With driving a car you, you can do an advanced drivers course to really improve the skills you learn from just driving around, as well as skills you don't learn from just driving around. I was hoping the advanced pilot course would be something similar.So how does one add to the basic skills learned during the pilot certificate course other than fly around the training area doing more steep turns, touch and go's etc. Aerobatics course? I love learning and want to continue to develop my skills and confidence in flying.

I have done the APA - and am very glad I did so. I am also surprised at the amount of negative comments, although I shouldn't be. It is the main reason I don't visit this site so much these days. With the exception of a small number of friendly and helpful people, the number of whinging, negative, sarcastic know alls has increased to the extent that I get depressed reading their opinionated crap. RJW - your question is valid, "has anyone here actually done it". Notice that out of 39 posts (mainly derogatory and negative) that all of these detractors have not actually done it. Don't listen to these morons.

 

Yes, in an ideal world, we should have learned these things during ab-initio, and maybe there are some instructors who do use it as revenue raising, and maybe a piece of paper doesn't make you a better pilot. Neither does being a big mouth keyboard warrior with nothing useful to contribute but your own overinflated egotistical opinion.

 

RJW - there are many reasons I am glad to have done it. For the sake of 4 or 5 hours with an instructor, I received many times more than that in real world experience. It was like giving the instructor the green light to open up all the things he thought he should be teaching but either weren't in the syllabus or not gone into in such depth. Many things that were taught were covered it so much more detail, the expected tolerances were tighter and I was fully engaged in each lesson. I came away from each and every lesson with a healthy sweat from the sheer mental focus. Some things taught were a complete contradiction to what I had been taught as part of my GA PPL training because the instructor had to teach it and observe me achieve a 'minimum' standard to qualify. However, his comments were that these things were not appropriate in 'real life'. It made perfect sense to me and I did have the opportunity to put this into a real world scenario not so long after, he was absolutely correct, my PPL training was not appropriate. Fine in theory, but not the real world.

 

It was also an opportunity to fly 3 different types of aircraft, so that I was constantly thinking and really flying the aircraft, not lazily going through the motions in an aircraft I could fly in my sleep. We also went to local farm airstrips that were never included in PPL or RAA training, probably because they were not officially certified but this type of airstrip constitutes a fair proportion of the places I now fly to in the real world.

 

I think also that during ab-initio, I flew the way I was taught, but didn't really have a solid, almost instinctive understanding of why. Given more experience, the APA training builds on this, and I understood the reasons for different actions better because it was built of a firm foundation.

 

OK, so I now have three extra letters printed on my certificate, it doesn't mean much to anyone. No one else even knows unless I tell them, and I only say something if they ask. It doesn't make me an outstanding pilot or better than a pilot who hasn't done it. There are many better pilots than me around, a great many on this forum, and probably even some of the twits with nothing nice to say, but the point is, I am a better pilot than I was before I did the training. That is all that counts.

 

I learned so much, that I will do some more of it at my next BFR. I will do some extra hours with a different instructor and ask them to show me the things that they don't teach students, but they would want their kids to know.

 

RJW There is so much more I learned, and I am happy to talk with you further if you send me a personal message.

 

 

[Camel]

I have done the APA - and am very glad I did so. I am also surprised at the amount of negative comments, although I shouldn't be. It is the main reason I don't visit this site so much these days. With the exception of a small number of friendly and helpful people, the number of whinging, negative, sarcastic know alls has increased to the extent that I get depressed reading their opinionated crap. RJW - your question is valid, "has anyone here actually done it". Notice that out of 39 posts (mainly derogatory and negative) that all of these detractors have not actually done it. Don't listen to these morons.Yes, in an ideal world, we should have learned these things during ab-initio, and maybe there are some instructors who do use it as revenue raising, and maybe a piece of paper doesn't make you a better pilot. Neither does being a big mouth keyboard warrior with nothing useful to contribute but your own overinflated egotistical opinion.

 

RJW - there are many reasons I am glad to have done it. For the sake of 4 or 5 hours with an instructor, I received many times more than that in real world experience. It was like giving the instructor the green light to open up all the things he thought he should be teaching but either weren't in the syllabus or not gone into in such depth. Many things that were taught were covered it so much more detail, the expected tolerances were tighter and I was fully engaged in each lesson. I came away from each and every lesson with a healthy sweat from the sheer mental focus. Some things taught were a complete contradiction to what I had been taught as part of my GA PPL training because the instructor had to teach it and observe me achieve a 'minimum' standard to qualify. However, his comments were that these things were not appropriate in 'real life'. It made perfect sense to me and I did have the opportunity to put this into a real world scenario not so long after, he was absolutely correct, my PPL training was not appropriate. Fine in theory, but not the real world.

 

It was also an opportunity to fly 3 different types of aircraft, so that I was constantly thinking and really flying the aircraft, not lazily going through the motions in an aircraft I could fly in my sleep. We also went to local farm airstrips that were never included in PPL or RAA training, probably because they were not officially certified but this type of airstrip constitutes a fair proportion of the places I now fly to in the real world.

 

I think also that during ab-initio, I flew the way I was taught, but didn't really have a solid, almost instinctive understanding of why. Given more experience, the APA training builds on this, and I understood the reasons for different actions better because it was built of a firm foundation.

 

OK, so I now have three extra letters printed on my certificate, it doesn't mean much to anyone. No one else even knows unless I tell them, and I only say something if they ask. It doesn't make me an outstanding pilot or better than a pilot who hasn't done it. There are many better pilots than me around, a great many on this forum, and probably even some of the twits with nothing nice to say, but the point is, I am a better pilot than I was before I did the training. That is all that counts.

 

I learned so much, that I will do some more of it at my next BFR. I will do some extra hours with a different instructor and ask them to show me the things that they don't teach students, but they would want their kids to know.

 

RJW There is so much more I learned, and I am happy to talk with you further if you send me a personal message.

My complete agreement with you Stoney and think you have summed it up nicely, I hold the APA and was issued before my instructor rating. The point people missed it is what it says "advanced". So I have learnt those who bag and rubbish RAA and ultralights usually are low performing pilots with no interest to improve.

 

 

[MartyG]

Very well said Stoney, Anything that increases a skill level can only be a good thing, If people don't wish to obtain it that's their choice but they shouldn't criticize a concept that may improve flying skills. My 2 cents

 

 

[M61A1]

My complete agreement with you Stoney and think you have summed it up nicely, I hold the APA and was issued before my instructor rating. The point people missed it is what it says "advanced". So I have learnt those who bag and rubbish RAA and ultralights usually are low performing pilots with no interest to improve.

No-one is bagging ultralights, or anyone who wants continuous improvement. The only real issue is what does the endorsement allow you to do with it? and that most of those discussing it can't understand why it's an endorsement, as generally to get your pilot cert, you should already been proficient at the things listed in the APA syllabus.

That would mean that some instructors are teaching more than they need to, or some aren't teaching enough.

 

 

[Piet Fil]

Agree with Stoney's and Camel's posts. After flying for around 120hrs I felt I had plateaued. I still loved my flying and enjoyed every flight but was also aware I was going into the danger zone of the 100-300hr pilot (read the "killing zone - how and why pilots die" by Paul Craig) and was also reading "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langeweische again. So I just did around ten hours or so of instruction focussing on improving my flying (refining my personal tolerances). It also involved discussing more about theory, the how's and whys of various aspects of flying and the aircraft. My opinion is, that like many other things in life, there are some things a student can only do, learn or understand properly after basic competence has been gained and consolidated. What it's called is not important and a lot of people fall into the category of "I've had my driving license for forty years and I've never had another lesson" yet still manage to drive poorly or not to their full potential. Many vocations have professional development requirements for the same reason ... Just doing the function isn't enough to improve .. You don't know what you don't know. I will say that Youcan also improve by self study and learning but seeking further instruction is just another valid pathway. People may mention the additional cost but my view is the rate of learning is increased by the external feedback and tends to balance out with reduced hours to get get to the same point as the self learner. Totally up to the individual which way they go but I enjoyed it and found it value for money.

 

Enjoy your flying

 

 

[Camel]

Thanks for your feedback guys.....interesting discussion . Surprised by the amount of negative comments regarding this course. Has anyone here actually done it or taught it? With driving a car you, you can do an advanced drivers course to really improve the skills you learn from just driving around, as well as skills

No-one is bagging ultralights, or anyone who wants continuous improvement. The only real issue is what does the endorsement allow you to do with it? and that most of those discussing it can't understand why it's an endorsement, as generally to get your pilot cert, you should already been proficient at the things listed in the APA syllabus.That would mean that some instructors are teaching more than they need to, or some aren't teaching enough.

Are all motorists on the road good safe drivers ? How many drivers could do with advanced driving courses ? Wouldn't make them able to do any thing else special but they may drive more defensive and with more skill !

 

See a lot of P plate drivers got a licence but are pretty ordinary !

 

 

[facthunter]

These days an "L" has to do over a hundred hours of supervised driving, entered in a log book. Some of this may be faked (I don't know) It's far in excess of what used to be the case. I only know what happens in Victoria, and not particularly certain of the exact details. Not only do some "P" platers appear to lack skills they have a definite lack of wisdom lack of regard for the rules and awareness of the dangers of their behaviour. I don't know if an advanced course would change their attitude. I'd stick them into going with an ambulance to some horrendous accidents to get a real idea of the possible consequences. I think some learn to drive on PlayStation. Nev

 

 

[M61A1]

Are all motorists on the road good safe drivers ? How many drivers could do with advanced driving courses ? Wouldn't make them able to do any thing else special but they may drive more defensive and with more skill !See a lot of P plate drivers got a licence but are pretty ordinary !

As I said, no-one is bagging anyone for wanting to improve. I don't personally understand why anyone wouldn't want to keep improving. I also don't understand why the APA is an endorsement, as you should be competent in the syllabus requirements before getting a pilot cert, that is all.

We aren't talking about our country's useless drivers, who essentially get a licence so that they can commute from A to B. We're talking about recreational pilots, who I perhaps wrongly assumed wanted to fly because they love it, and will do whatever they can to be good at it, for the love of it.

 

On the subject of P plate drivers though, I see many more middle aged or elderly drivers they are far more incompetent than almost any P plater I've seen.

 

I have also looked into advanced driver courses. I wanted to do one with my daughter when she got her licence, but after looking at the content of most of the QLD Transport approved ones, I was very disappointed in what they had to offer. Most of them appeared to be theory which just regurgitated the same old garbage taught by someone with little or no actual skill except for a CertIV in instruction.

 

So to get some hands on, we went for a day on the skidpan with a club.

 

So, go and do whatever endorsements you like, or go and organise a club day as the Clifton club did recently with some upset recovery training with a GA Aerobatic instructor in in an aerobatic aircraft, It's not in the syllabus, and there's no endorsement, but it's useful.

 

 

[Camel]

As I said, no-one is bagging anyone for wanting to improve. I don't personally understand why anyone wouldn't want to keep improving. I also don't understand why the APA is an endorsement, as you should be competent in the syllabus requirements before getting a pilot cert, that is all.We aren't talking about our country's useless drivers, who essentially get a licence so that they can commute from A to B. We're talking about recreational pilots, who I perhaps wrongly assumed wanted to fly because they love it, and will do whatever they can to be good at it, for the love of it.

On the subject of P plate drivers though, I see many more middle aged or elderly drivers they are far more incompetent than almost any P plater I've seen.

 

I have also looked into advanced driver courses. I wanted to do one with my daughter when she got her licence, but after looking at the content of most of the QLD Transport approved ones, I was very disappointed in what they had to offer. Most of them appeared to be theory which just regurgitated the same old garbage taught by someone with little or no actual skill except for a CertIV in instruction.

 

So to get some hands on, we went for a day on the skidpan with a club.

 

So, go and do whatever endorsements you like, or go and organise a club day as the Clifton club did recently with some upset recovery training with a GA Aerobatic instructor in in an aerobatic aircraft, It's not in the syllabus, and there's no endorsement, but it's useful.

All of what you say is a fair comment ! The endorsement part is just recognition of an advanced standard, same as instructor, it's a standard that's recognised and for the most part no big deal until you try teaching a beginner, not as easy as it sounds, if your student hurts themselves then it could be on your conscience for not teaching right ! I met such an instructor many years ago now deceased, the accident was explained to me and I felt I was helping clear his conscience, he said he never had discussed it with anyone else, very sad and it was a double fatality of the same family. The cause was something that with extra training would have prevented this sort of thing, it was a case of several mistakes causing the major final mistake that took their lives, I can not discuss this accident here but am sure extra training or even as M61A said club training or competition will improve your skills.

 

I trained to be a trike pilot HGFA, Ultralight AUF, GA PPL, RAA instructor, plus many AFR for GA, BFR for RAA with PE, plus some aerobatic, spins etc with no endorsement just practice, glider lesson, club completions, so I have plenty of dual time, also before getting any training I was a hangar rat flying with friends.

 

 

[facthunter]

An instructor has a formidable responsibility. If someone crashed who was a pupil of mine and there was a deficit in the basics I would have difficulty living with it. Rushing the solo and other shortcuts, aren't good policy if safety is compromised. It's a finely balanced thing assessing people's capabilities and how thoroughly the person has absorbed the lessons. I don't think people who haven't instructed flying would fully understand what the responsibility is or how you feel when a low hours student doing a solo exercise returns to a wind changed situation or some new challenge in the sky. Nev

 

 

[Camel]

An instructor has a formidable responsibility. If someone crashed who was a pupil of mine and there was a deficit in the basics I would have difficulty living with it. Rushing the solo and other shortcuts, aren't good policy if safety is compromised. It's a finely balanced thing assessing people's capabilities and how thoroughly the person has absorbed the lessons. I don't think people who haven't instructed flying would fully understand what the responsibility is or how you feel when a low hours student doing a solo exercise returns to a wind changed situation or some new challenge in the sky. Nev

Well said Nev !

 

Hence the joy of being able to get advanced training to find a person weaknesses and make them their strengths.

 

 

[Geoff13]

I have just completed my first BFR. What I did gain from that was the need for continual learning and assessment.

 

It is very easy to pick up some bad habits.

 

I intend to do a lot more Dual time in future to not only continue learning but hopefully pick up and bad habits that creep into my flying.

 

The bonus is there are still several endorsements out there for me to get so I advance my skills as well as improving on my current ones.

 

 

[facthunter]

You might have noticed my inclination to push mandating unusual attitude recovery training for all instructors as well as recommending it generally. If I encourage even one or two to do it, it's something. People shouldn't be afraid of their planes doing certain things they can't control or understand, because they haven't been taught things. Nev