Cessna down with 4 on board

[Happyflyer]

You are one of those! You have deliberately misconstrued my words. The regulations state that for the purpose of landing or inspection you may descend below 500 feet within 3 miles of an ALA or landing area.Not immediately at 3 nautical miles.

Here's the reg for you. You obviously know of another one. I'm always keen to learn. I can't find the one you are referring to about the inspection and the 3nm.

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 157

 

Low flying

 

(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not fly the aircraft over:

 

(a) any city, town or populous area at a height lower than 1,000 feet; or

 

(b) any other area at a height lower than 500 feet.

 

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

 

(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.

 

Note: For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .

 

(3) A height specified in subregulation (1) is the height above the highest point of the terrain, and any object on it, within a radius of:

 

(a) in the case of an aircraft other than a helicopter--600 metres; or

 

(b) in the case of a helicopter--300 metres;

 

from a point on the terrain vertically below the aircraft.

 

(3A) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in respect of a helicopter flying at a designated altitude within an access lane details of which have been published in the AIP or NOTAMS for use by helicopters arriving at or departing from a specified place.

 

(4) Subregulation (1) does not apply if:

 

(a) through stress of weather or any other unavoidable cause it is essential that a lower height be maintained; or

 

(b) the aircraft is engaged in private operations or aerial work operations, being operations that require low flying, and the owner or operator of the aircraft has received from CASA either a general permit for all flights or a specific permit for the particular flight to be made at a lower height while engaged in such operations; or

 

© the pilot of the aircraft is receiving flight training in low-level operations or aerial application operations, within the meaning of Part 61 of CASR; or

 

(d) the pilot of the aircraft is engaged in a baulked approach procedure, or the practice of such procedure under the supervision of a flight instructor or a check pilot; or

 

(e) the aircraft is flying in the course of actually taking-off or landing at an aerodrome; or

 

(f) the pilot of the aircraft is engaged in:

 

(i) a search; or

 

(ii) a rescue; or

 

(iii) dropping supplies;

 

in a search and rescue operation; or

 

(g) the aircraft is a helicopter:

 

(i) operated by, or for the purposes of, the Australian Federal Police or the police force of a State or Territory; and

 

(ii) engaged in law enforcement operations; or

 

(h) the pilot of the aircraft is engaged in an operation which requires the dropping of packages or other articles or substances in accordance with directions issued by CASA.

 

 

[Low Flyer 1770]

I'm not at home to check my books, so I'll take your word for that. That being so, I agree with the pilot, would have turned away from the water and taken pot luck with any hard surface available in the time.

You can do a landing any time without a PSAL on an outfield ALA but would be very foolish to do so.

I was not the pilot but was some miles behind and made the Pan call....our procedures we thought were very safe....an accident on landing seemed a far higher risk due to a surface problem than an engine failure.

 

And I would still assess that as being so.....however, having been involved in this, I am unfortunately far more nervous of flying in single engined aircraft especially at low level even if it is a requirement,

 

 

[Low Flyer 1770]

Here's the reg for you. You obviously know of another one. I'm always keen to learn. I can't find the one you are referring to about the inspection. CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 157

Low flying

 

(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not fly the aircraft over:

 

(a) any city, town or populous area at a height lower than 1,000 feet; or

 

(b) any other area at a height lower than 500 feet.

 

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

 

(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.

 

Note: For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .

 

(3) A height specified in subregulation (1) is the height above the highest point of the terrain, and any object on it, within a radius of:

 

(a) in the case of an aircraft other than a helicopter--600 metres; or

 

(b) in the case of a helicopter--300 metres;

 

from a point on the terrain vertically below the aircraft.

 

(3A) Paragraph (1)(a) does not apply in respect of a helicopter flying at a designated altitude within an access lane details of which have been published in the AIP or NOTAMS for use by helicopters arriving at or departing from a specified place.

 

(4) Subregulation (1) does not apply if:

 

(a) through stress of weather or any other unavoidable cause it is essential that a lower height be maintained; or

 

(b) the aircraft is engaged in private operations or aerial work operations, being operations that require low flying, and the owner or operator of the aircraft has received from CASA either a general permit for all flights or a specific permit for the particular flight to be made at a lower height while engaged in such operations; or

 

© the pilot of the aircraft is receiving flight training in low-level operations or aerial application operations, within the meaning of Part 61 of CASR; or

 

(d) the pilot of the aircraft is engaged in a baulked approach procedure, or the practice of such procedure under the supervision of a flight instructor or a check pilot; or

 

(e) the aircraft is flying in the course of actually taking-off or landing at an aerodrome; or

 

(f) the pilot of the aircraft is engaged in:

 

(i) a search; or

 

(ii) a rescue; or

 

(iii) dropping supplies;

 

in a search and rescue operation; or

 

(g) the aircraft is a helicopter:

 

(i) operated by, or for the purposes of, the Australian Federal Police or the police force of a State or Territory; and

 

(ii) engaged in law enforcement operations; or

 

(h) the pilot of the aircraft is engaged in an operation which requires the dropping of packages or other articles or substances in accordance with directions issued by CASA.

I am not going to drag up the regs for you.

 

However have you never done a biennial when you have been required to do a PSAL?

 

If you have not and you are unfortunate enough to do it with me, then I assure you that you will.

 

Google PSAL and you will find it.

 

Happy to help

 

 

[Low Flyer 1770]

I'm not quoting this accident with my commentI was merely stating that BLA 82 was most likely referring to a promo / YouTube video which showed Pax with seat belts off during a non aerobatic manoeuvre

Pretty good practice BTW to allow paying passengers to undo their seat belts while you do a non aerobatic pushover in to negative g

 

You keep defending Woody it's fine you obviously get Buzz out of your Toy Story operation[/quote

[BLA82]

Low flyer I was referring to the video of the passenger without the seatbelt doing a negative g manoeuvre. I never questioned the pilots capability just the stupid decisions made in that video.

 

Mate you can stand up on your pedestal all you want but that video speaks for itself. And coming from someone who has as much experience as you do (so you keep telling us) has a experience pilot never made a mistake. EVERYONE can make a mistake and anyone who says they can't a more ignorant then intelegent.

 

 

[bull]

Thanks for the neutral support..Actually I mean that, if you are unaware of all the facts then you are perfectly entitled to comment as you have and I take no umbrage at that...this had nothing to do with a beach landing. Woody was carrying out a PSAL at 200 ft when the engine failed.....he had 150 metres of beach in front of him and water in front after that. Historically high wing aircraft with wheels down going into water have a very poor survival rate.......that is why we refused to do reef flights. He made the hard choice and brought it around and back to land on the sand. There was 53 litres of fuel on board, the engine just cut with no missing at all which indicates a break in fuel line or complete ignition failure, ATSB are investigating both of these options.I was there and was capturing fuel as it drained to prevent it falling all over the occupants in the wreckage and administered CPR to the girl who died for over an hour.

I also flew out and brought paramedics back in.

 

I do hope that all those tall poppy arm chair judges I have now seen on this page are ducking for cover and cringing after the faceatious moralistic ill informed judgements they have dared to make.

 

And I would just be willing to bet they are also too gutless to apologise.

Cool down mate,,,a lot of these comments are a bit close to the bone . But those videos out there show a real problem with the way the operation was done ,so they provide evidence to speculate ah...............

 

 

[Teckair]

Can anyone advise how long aeroplane beach is and what end the accident happened?

 

 

[Teckair]

Can anyone advise how long aeroplane beach is and what end the accident happened?

OK no so one knows, when I was there over 20 years ago I remember it being very long, with plenty of room to safely land a light aircraft.

 

 

[Love to fly]

OK no so one knows, when I was there over 20 years ago I remember it being very long, with plenty of room to safely land a light aircraft.

Investigation: AO-2017-005 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna C172M, VH-WTQ, near Agnes Water, Queensland, on 10 January 2017 provides some detail.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Investigation: AO-2017-005 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna C172M, VH-WTQ, near Agnes Water, Queensland, on 10 January 2017 provides some detail.

Funny how video doesn't lie

Thanks for the report Love to fly

 

 

[KRviator]

At about 4 minutes flight time' date=' the pilot conducted a series of manoeuvres including steep turns, steep climbs and descents, manoeuvres that were consistent with negative g3] and yawing4] the aircraft left and rightafter about 6 minutes flight time, and after a second series of yawing and other manoeuvres that were consistent with negative g, the engine power momentarily reduced before recovering

Aerobatics in a 172 at 1500AGL with paying passengers on board? WTF? And yes, negative G in normal operations IS defined as aerobatics, LowFlyer1770...

 

 

[alf jessup]

Aerobatics in a 172 at 1500AGL with paying passengers on board? WTF?And yes, negative G in normal operations IS defined as aerobatics, LowFlyer1770...

Guess ol Lowy doesn't see it that way KR

The operation up there I'm guessing also operated a rodeo after hours

 

 

[Oscar]

Woody was carrying out a PSAL at 200 ft when the engine failed.....he had 150 metres of beach in front of him and water in front after that. Historically high wing aircraft with wheels down going into water have a very poor survival rate.......that is why we refused to do reef flights. He made the hard choice and brought it around and back to land on the sand. I do hope that all those tall poppy arm chair judges I have now seen on this page are ducking for cover and cringing after the faceatious moralistic ill informed judgements they have dared to make.

 

And I would just be willing to bet they are also too gutless to apologise.

The flight path information generated from the GPS onboard and displayed in the ATSB report contradicts your description of the overflight heights by a significant margin.

 

Perhaps you might like to comment on why this is so?

 

 

[KRviator]

• after about 6 minutes flight time, and after a second series of yawing and other manoeuvres that were consistent with negative g, the engine power momentarily reduced before recovering
   
   
  
• a descent down to about 100 ft and flight parallel to the beach over water, consistent with the conduct of a beach-landing site inspection
   
   
  
• at about 7 minutes flight time, the engine sustained a sudden power loss and subsequently the:
   
  pilot turned the aircraft to the right momentarily before raising the nose and initiating a left turn with an initial bank angle of about 45°
   
   
  
• bank angle increased and the airspeed decreased to a point where the aircraft’s stall warning horn sounded for about 3 seconds
   
   
  
• aircraft rolled left and pitched nose down before impacting terrain.
   
   
  

Looking at that, the engine failed a minute after a bunt that also caused an engine power interruption. Negative G, as opposed to 0G, would also unport the fuel pickup in the selected tank drawing air into the lines. A minute goes by in a low-power descent from 1500 to 100, the slug of air moves through the line towards the carb and there's your engine failure. The certification standards FAR 23/25 actually permit momentary power interruptions as part of multi-tank fuel system design, provided power is restored within 20 seconds if air is introduced, or 10 seconds in the case of fuel depletion from the selected tank.Could well be there was nothing at all wrong with the aircraft other than what the pilot caused....

 

 

[Teckair]

Looking at that, the engine failed a minute after a bunt that also caused an engine power interruption. Negative G, as opposed to 0G, would also unport the fuel pickup in the selected tank drawing air into the lines. A minute goes by in a low-power descent from 1500 to 100, the slug of air moves through the line towards the carb and there's your engine failure. The certification standards FAR 23/25 actually permit momentary power interruptions as part of multi-tank fuel system design, provided power is restored within 20 seconds if air is introduced, or 10 seconds in the case of fuel depletion from the selected tank.Could well be there was nothing at all wrong with the aircraft other than what the pilot caused....

And then you fly low to the end of the beach where there is no where to go if the engine stops.

 

 

[Yenn]

I have been informed that the accident was not at aeroplane beach, bur at the entrance to Jenny Lind creek. There is ample room for anything up to light twin to land at aeroplane beach, but the area at Jenny Lind is much smaller, I decided not to land my Corby there once when a friend landed his Savvy. I am not saying it is too short, but I was not happy to use it. I have no intention of apologising for my posts on this matter. I just wait for the final report. I notice that Low Flyer 1770 is now at Bathurst.

 

 

[planesmaker]

care to comment lowflyer?

 

 

[Downunder]

care to comment lowflyer?

I hear galloping hooves and see dust rising in the sunset.....

 

 

[bull]

Investigation: AO-2017-005 - Collision with terrain involving Cessna C172M, VH-WTQ, near Agnes Water, Queensland, on 10 January 2017 provides some detail.

A bit funny how a witness on the beach who saw the accident said the aircraft was flying parallel/along the beach and then suddenly banked to the left and impacted the beach just after that dog leg in the beach with those sort of higher trees on the corner, and the tip of the left wing seems tohave several small dints and impact damage on it as if the aircraft was snagged on the outer tip of branches and dragged into a stall to impact where it has??? Also as the witness on the beach did not mention anything about the engine cutting out before impact.i still find it hard to believe ""lowflyers account of the accident as ,as the report says he was flying 2nm behind the other aircraft and did not see the accident take place,? so do I believe his story here or what he told the accident investigators hmmm..........

 

 

[winsor68]

I think Low Flyer has a hell of a hide defending the actions of his "mate" and needs to wake up to himself.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Just all very sad, poor girl.

 

 

[planesmaker]

Windsor I have to say I admire the fact he will stand up for his mate even though it appears his mate may have been caught in a situation of his own making. Just a real pity he had no where to go snd resulted in death and injury.

 

 

[KRviator]

Just all very sad, poor girl.

True indeed. Makes me wonder though, if another pilot decided to take such a flight and ol' mate decided to pull one of his stunts, would he be pulled up on it?Personally I would probably say something - afterall <0G in a 172 with 4POB is not normal despite anyones assertions to the contary - but it makes me wonder how many times he has done something like this and got away with it due to pepole turning a blind eye. AIUI, there is footage on YouTube from another one or two of their flights with the back seat passenger and/or the cargo floating about unrestrained indicating it was not an isolated incident and in contravention of the CAR's. Also begs the question "Where was CASA in all of this?".....

 

 

[Yenn]

Was Low flyer the chief pilot of the organisation? If so I can see he may have a position to defend.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

Was Low flyer the chief pilot of the organisation? If so I can see he may have a position to defend.

Please give him some leeway, right or wrong he is seeing his mate drowning, and helped perform CPR on a dying young girl for an hour, it's an understandably emotional and difficult time for him.

 

The facts are there, the relevant authorities will follow due process.