Class D airspace procedures

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Hi guys, currently doing the CASA class D airspace e-learning module (eLearning catalogue | Civil Aviation Safety Authority) and I'm a little confused :) Hoping some of you more enlighten folk can clarify some things as I work my way through this module.

 

First up entry procedures.

 

"acknowledgement from ATC represents the authority for the aircraft to enter Class D Airspace following the stated track and level including descent to the runway threshold if a landing is intended. Unless altitude instructions are given, acknowledgement permits descent if a landing is intended.

 

Pilots must not deviate from the track, level and intentions stated during the establishment of 2-way communications or the instructions issued by ATC (if these instructions modify the stated track, level and intentions), unless authorised by ATC. This is important and must be strictly followed."

 

These two statements seem to contradict each other. So my questions is:

 

1) If the ATC just acknowledges my callsign after I give an inbound call (which I have heard them do at archerfield), can I descend or do I have to maintain altitude until advised? My basic understanding is that you cant descend for landing until "cleared visual approach"?

 

2) At Bankstown I heard on liveATC, after giving an inbound call, you can be told to "join final 11L". No 'cleared visual approach' given by ATC. In this case are you allowed to descend?

 

 

[djpacro]

See this for how Class D is played at Moorabbin MOORABBIN CLASS D RADIO PHRASEOLOGY AND PROCEDURES - Melbourne Flight Training it should answer your question.

 

 

[Roscoe]

Hi guys, currently doing the CASA class D airspace e-learning module (eLearning catalogue | Civil Aviation Safety Authority) and I'm a little confused :) Hoping some of you more enlighten folk can clarify some things as I work my way through this module.First up entry procedures.

 

"acknowledgement from ATC represents the authority for the aircraft to enter Class D Airspace following the stated track and level including descent to the runway threshold if a landing is intended. Unless altitude instructions are given, acknowledgement permits descent if a landing is intended.

 

Pilots must not deviate from the track, level and intentions stated during the establishment of 2-way communications or the instructions issued by ATC (if these instructions modify the stated track, level and intentions), unless authorised by ATC. This is important and must be strictly followed."

 

These two statements seem to contradict each other. So my questions is:

 

1) If the ATC just acknowledges my callsign after I give an inbound call (which I have heard them do at archerfield), can I descend or do I have to maintain altitude until advised? My basic understanding is that you cant descend for landing until "cleared visual approach"?

 

2) At Bankstown I heard on liveATC, after giving an inbound call, you can be told to "join final 11L". No 'cleared visual approach' given by ATC. In this case are you allowed to descend?

At Bankstown, you may descend and join final when using Rwy 11. Inbound via 2RN you will be told to report Warwick farm and via Prospect you will normally be told to report 3 miles.

 

 

[Roscoe]

At Bankstown, you may descend and join final when using Rwy 11. Inbound via 2RN you will be told to report Warwick farm and via Prospect you will normally be told to report 3 miles.

And Richard, please PM me if you want clarification of YSBK procedures.

 

 

[Camel]

the way I see what you have said is not quite right on first contact you don't nessecarly get a clearance, before you enter class D you must ask for a clearance, in saying that I always ask for a clearance on first contact, they can respond with expect delay or request at reporting point before entry.

 

I have not done busy class D for a while, my recent experience is with Coffs and I check ATIS, call before report point with identification and say approaching point with flight details and WAIT for response, I then give details and request clearance and am told to report at class D entry point with alt to maintain and usually told cleared. So I'm trying to say making contact is not a clearance, you must ask or hear the words CLEARED.

 

AM I WRONG ?

 

 

[Roscoe]

the way I see what you have said is not quite right on first contact you don't nessecarly get a clearance, before you enter class D you must ask for a clearance, in saying that I always ask for a clearance on first contact, they can respond with expect delay or request at reporting point before entry. I have not done busy class D for a while, my recent experience is with Coffs and I check ATIS, call before report point with identification and say approaching point with flight details and WAIT for response, I then give details and request clearance and am told to report at class D entry point with alt to maintain and usually told cleared. So I'm trying to say making contact is not a clearance, you must ask or hear the words CLEARED.

AM I WRONG ?

Basically correct, each Class D has its own local procedures however and the ERSA should be your point of reference

 

 

[Roscoe]

Hi guys, currently doing the CASA class D airspace e-learning module (eLearning catalogue | Civil Aviation Safety Authority) and I'm a little confused :) Hoping some of you more enlighten folk can clarify some things as I work my way through this module.First up entry procedures.

 

"acknowledgement from ATC represents the authority for the aircraft to enter Class D Airspace following the stated track and level including descent to the runway threshold if a landing is intended. Unless altitude instructions are given, acknowledgement permits descent if a landing is intended.

 

Pilots must not deviate from the track, level and intentions stated during the establishment of 2-way communications or the instructions issued by ATC (if these instructions modify the stated track, level and intentions), unless authorised by ATC. This is important and must be strictly followed."

 

These two statements seem to contradict each other. So my questions is:

 

1) If the ATC just acknowledges my callsign after I give an inbound call (which I have heard them do at archerfield), can I descend or do I have to maintain altitude until advised? My basic understanding is that you cant descend for landing until "cleared visual approach"?

 

2) At Bankstown I heard on liveATC, after giving an inbound call, you can be told to "join final 11L". No 'cleared visual approach' given by ATC. In this case are you allowed to descend?

Rich have a look at the CASA ON TRACK Website which details Class D procedures at various airports

 

 

[Parkway]

Hi guys, currently doing the CASA class D airspace e-learning module (eLearning catalogue | Civil Aviation Safety Authority) and I'm a little confused :) Hoping some of you more enlighten folk can clarify some things as I work my way through this module.First up entry procedures.

 

"acknowledgement from ATC represents the authority for the aircraft to enter Class D Airspace following the stated track and level including descent to the runway threshold if a landing is intended. Unless altitude instructions are given, acknowledgement permits descent if a landing is intended.

 

Pilots must not deviate from the track, level and intentions stated during the establishment of 2-way communications or the instructions issued by ATC (if these instructions modify the stated track, level and intentions), unless authorised by ATC. This is important and must be strictly followed."

 

These two statements seem to contradict each other. So my questions is:

 

1) If the ATC just acknowledges my callsign after I give an inbound call (which I have heard them do at archerfield), can I descend or do I have to maintain altitude until advised? My basic understanding is that you cant descend for landing until "cleared visual approach"?

 

2) At Bankstown I heard on liveATC, after giving an inbound call, you can be told to "join final 11L". No 'cleared visual approach' given by ATC. In this case are you allowed to descend?

They're saying that if they just acknowledge you, you're pretty much cleared for the approach as expected/standard, but they generally give an instruction, like report at a certain point, or maintain an altitude, as far as I know. At Jandakot they will always reply "your call sign, maintain 1500" so then you are cleared into the airspace but must maintain 1500, until they give you joining instructions and say cleared visual approach. And you need to report at whichever visual reporting point is standard for that approach as shown on your charts. Then you can descend to pattern altitude and join as instructed. A few of the videos on my YouTube channel have a couple of different visual approaches at Jandakot if that helps

 

 

[Yenn]

My understanding is that if when you call up, they reply with your call sign, then you are cleared to enter. they will then give a clearance. If they answer with something along the lines of "aircraft calling 25 South East" then you will have to call again with your request.

 

 

[GraemeK]

Yenn is correct - if they respond with your callsign you are cleared to enter Class D. Normally, however, they'll also give you an instruction like "join downwind runway 35 right, report 3 miles". Once you are thus cleared to enter the Class D CTR you are also cleared to commence descent to circuit height and to fly the approach. The only explicit clearance you'll normally get is "cleared to land/T&G/the option".

 

 

[rotatingturbine]

Ok so this all seems complicated but it just takes time.

 

Inbound

 

Check VTC for an inbound reporting point for the zone, usually a purple diamond. Im going to use my home airport (YBSU) as an example.

 

"Sunshine Coast Tower, CALLSIGN Inbound Details."

 

"CALLSIGN, Sunshine Coast Tower"

 

"CALLSIGN is overhead (VFR reporting point), (altitude), (atis receipt), (any additional information, over water, over land etc.), requesting inbound clearance."

 

Here you will usually get one of four replies.

 

CALLSIGN, make (circuit leg) for RWxx. Report (circuit leg).

 

Ok so we are cleared to operate into the Class D at our assigned altitude, and we are able to descend to circuit height if able. Once you report on that leg, they will generally issue landing clearance. Remember, you are cleared to descend to circuit height as soon as you are in the zone.

 

CALLSIGN, parachuting ops 2nm north of your position, do not penetrate Class D zone, retry in 10 minutes.

 

Even though they have acknowledged your callsign, you are NOT cleared into the Class D. Follow the instruction and call again.

 

Aircraft calling, heavy traffic at present time, try again at (Time xx)

 

Once again, not able to fly into Class D. Try again at the given time.

 

CALLSIGN, roger.

 

Cleared to enter Class D at altitude specified in inbound call. Must stay in current track until cleared otherwise. Wait for clearance for circuit direction or landing clearance. Eg, if I reported inbound at 1500 over water, I must stay with that track and altitude.

 

The important thing to remember is to listen, and never read back an instruction you cannot comply with or don't fully understand. Thats the only way you can get into trouble generally.

 

I'm only a 15y/o student pilot so if someone spots a mistake, please say so.

 

 

[Romeo Juliet Whiskey]

Thanks for your feedback Rotatingturbine. I'm sure those procedures you have listed are correct for YBSU, but there does seem to be some significant differences to class D operations at Bankstown/Camden from what have read over the last couple of days. It seems that every class D airport makes up there own procedures - the lack of standardization if puzzling and confusing to a student pilot. For example:

 

"CALLSIGN is overhead (VFR reporting point), (altitude), (atis receipt), (any additional information, over water, over land etc.), requesting inbound clearance."

 

At other class D airports AFAIK, there is no need to explicitly ask for 'clearance' (i.e. just say 'inbound')... it is implied and granted if your tower responds with your call sign.

 

"ALLSIGN, make (circuit leg) for RWxx. Report (circuit leg).

 

Ok so we are cleared to operate into the Class D at our assigned altitude, and we are able to descend to circuit height if able. Once you report on that leg, they will generally issue landing clearance. Remember, you are cleared to descend to circuit height as soon as you are in the zone."

 

At other class D airports AFAIK, when told to report at a certain leg you, you must descend and be at circuit height before entering the zone, unless told otherwise.

 

"CALLSIGN, roger.

 

Cleared to enter Class D at altitude specified in inbound call. Must stay in current track until cleared otherwise. "

 

At other class D airports AFAIK, if the call-sign is just acknowledge, then you are cleared to commence descent and must enter the zone at circuit height on the appropriate leg.

 

Pretty confused about this whole process!!!

 

 

[rotatingturbine]

Thanks for your feedback Rotatingturbine. I'm sure those procedures you have listed are correct for YBSU, but there does seem to be some significant differences to class D operations at Bankstown/Camden from what have read over the last couple of days. It seems that every class D airport makes up there own procedures - the lack of standardization if puzzling and confusing to a student pilot. For example:"CALLSIGN is overhead (VFR reporting point), (altitude), (atis receipt), (any additional information, over water, over land etc.), requesting inbound clearance."

 

At other class D airports AFAIK, there is no need to explicitly ask for 'clearance' (i.e. just say 'inbound')... it is implied and granted if your tower responds with your call sign.

 

"ALLSIGN, make (circuit leg) for RWxx. Report (circuit leg).

 

Ok so we are cleared to operate into the Class D at our assigned altitude, and we are able to descend to circuit height if able. Once you report on that leg, they will generally issue landing clearance. Remember, you are cleared to descend to circuit height as soon as you are in the zone."

 

At other class D airports AFAIK, when told to report at a certain leg you, you must descend and be at circuit height before entering the zone, unless told otherwise.

 

"CALLSIGN, roger.

 

Cleared to enter Class D at altitude specified in inbound call. Must stay in current track until cleared otherwise. "

 

At other class D airports AFAIK, if the call-sign is just acknowledge, then you are cleared to commence descent and must enter the zone at circuit height on the appropriate leg.

 

Pretty confused about this whole process!!!

Haha. Yeah it is pretty confusing. The lack of standardisation is ridiculous and confusing as it is very hard to learn the 'standard' procedures... if they even exist. Good luck. I think it just depends on your airport...

 

 

[Roundsounds]

(Edited by Mod)

 

The procedures used at former GAAP airports are nothing like the standard class D procedures used at places like Albury or Tamworth. Why not simply stick with GAAP or adopt Class D? Camden has a tower operating 7 days/week with hardly any traffic, I don't understand why it cannot be G midweek and D weekends, save operators yet another fee.

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Hi

 

Call me simple, it's always ok to confirm your intentions ( I. e. ask) with tower. They'll very quickly tell you if otherwise.

 

I.e. 'CALLSIGN Roger, clear to continue descent and enter circuit'

 

Ramjet

 

 

[GraemeK]

Yes, in Class D you don't specifically request clearance, unlike Class C. So the first call is along the lines of:

 

"Moorabbin Tower, Archer ABC, Academy one thousand five hundred, received Whiskey, inbound".

 

Unlike Class C:

 

"Essendon Tower, Archer ABC, Doncaster Shoppingtown one thousand five hundred, received Whiskey, inbound. Request airways clearance".

 

 

[Roundsounds]

Yes, in Class D you don't specifically request clearance, unlike Class C. So the first call is along the lines of:"Moorabbin Tower, Archer ABC, Academy one thousand five hundred, received Whiskey, inbound".

 

Unlike Class C:

 

"Essendon Tower, Archer ABC, Doncaster Shoppingtown one thousand five hundred, received Whiskey, inbound. Request airways clearance".

Unless you're operating into an original Class D airport like Coffs, Albury or Tamworth then you'll find the procedures substantially similar to class C.

 

 

[bloodandiron]

I'm pretty sure Bankstown is procedural Class D (GAAP rebranded). The Class D you'd find at Sunny Coast is much different, Bankstown/Archerfield are more "terminal" airspace rather than a fully fledged centre.

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Before we head off into the esoteric ( as some posters here are deigned to do,)

 

ATC are there to keep YOU , and others, safe. So ask. If unsure, ask again. That's their job.

 

I've had exactly this experience in both Hawaii, HNL (Honolulu) and HTO (Hilo) just ask, and if unclear, ask again. It's not about you being a perfect pilot with perfect radio calls understanding all the nuances in replies, but everyone's safety.

 

Flysafe

 

Ramjet

 

 

[Roundsounds]

I'm pretty sure Bankstown is procedural Class D (GAAP rebranded). The Class D you'd find at Sunny Coast is much different, Bankstown/Archerfield are more "terminal" airspace rather than a fully fledged centre.

Places like YSBK (former GAAP) are refered to as Metropolitan Class D, the genuine Class D (Sunshine Coast) are the procedural Class Ds.

Request Rejected

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

Before anyone crossthreads with some of my other posts, I was not PIC on Hawaii flights, merely a very interested (and maybe a little active) observer. :-)

 

 

[Roundsounds]

ATC are there to keep YOU , and others, safe. So ask. If unsure, ask again. That's their job.

It's not about you being a perfect pilot with perfect radio calls understanding all the nuances in replies, but everyone's safety.

I agree with you to a point, but if all airspace users make up their own version of what to say and constantly seek clarifIcation of instructions there will be constant RT chatter and a breakdown in the system.

Pilots should strive to use standard phraseology, but this does take time and practice.

 

I prefer to think of them as ATS rather than ATC. The S being for Services, as you stated they are there to provide a service and at times some need reminding of that fact.

 

 

[rrogerramjet]

I agree with you to a point, but if all airspace users make up their own version of what to say and constantly seek clarifIcation of instructions there will be constant RT chatter and a breakdown in the system.Pilots should strive to use standard phraseology, but this does take time and practice.

I prefer to think of them as ATS rather than ATC. The S being for Services, as you stated they are there to provide a service and at times some need reminding of that fact.

Agreed. And after a time one will get the knack, in the interim, just ask and fly safe

 

 

[coljones]

There used to be a document called "Sydney Basin VFG" which was quite comprehensive. Have a look at this video

 

which flies you through part of the Bankstown procedures and uses the standard radio calls in use at YSBK. I'm not sure who "Roger" is but it is highly unlikely to be any where near YSBK (tongue in cheek) as most calls from the tower will require a positive response so that the tower understand s that the pilot understands what they have just been told what to do.

[rrogerramjet]

Try again...

 

Here what happens..

 

E190 near collision Mildura May 16 - ASI bulletin 56 - PPRuNe Forums

 

Apologies on my mobile..