Anyone here wth C-337 experience ?

[Phil Perry]

I'm sure that there are some instructors and greying 'Eagles' on this thread, I wonder if any of you have any experience with the Cessn 337 'Push-me-Pull-you type ? . . .I ask as a result of a conversation I had whilst bantering with 'Hank' an elderly American tourist feller a few weeks ago, in the UK with his Ladywife on a canal boat vacation. . . who said he had a lot of 'Time' on the type.

 

I had around 4-5 hours 'Hands on' experience in Indonesia in the late 1970s, with a Dutch chap who flew various types of small cargo loads, including seafood, ( by the bloody rank smell inside it ) And it seemed a nice, 'Beefy' thing to fly, best description would be flying a piece of earthmoving equipment. . .

 

Hank said that if you had an engine failure on the rear engine, without a full load, it wasn't really a big issue, but if the front one failed, then it was very very difficult in the pitch control department, as you needed quite a lot of rearwards control force applied as well as full nose-up trim to maintain level flight. . .Since I had only two flights in this beastie, I never got to study the POH, and prior to speaking to this tourist bloke, it had never crossed my mind. And it WAS a loooong time ago. . .

 

This sounds counter intuitive to me, if the propwash from the rear engine is blasting across the elevator. . . .? Is this a feature that anyone else knows about ? I admit that, although I walked around the bird doing the external checks with the pilot, I cannot recall if the elevator is 'Full Width, but my question still stands . . .

 

The problem with being a 'Jack of all planes - master of none' is that some detaills are easily forgotten. .. ( ! )

 

NOTE* This was one of the 'All Sorts' in my personal avatar. . . . ( ! )

 

 

[old man emu]

Here you go:

 

Cessna C336 C337 Aircraft history performance and specifications

 

CESSNA 337 Super Skymaster - SKYbrary Aviation Safety

 

 

[frank marriott]

Phil

 

I wouldn't say very experienced on type but do have about 15hrs on one.

 

No actual engine failure experienced but during the endorsement had "simulated" rear engine failure on take off. Couldn't achieve a climb rate, wheels down. With the slow & draggy undercarriage system it was treated like a SE retract. Only simulated zero thrust and not feathered so possibly better in a real situation, and the one I was flying was old and tired.

 

Rear engine the critical one.

 

Front engine feathered in flight and flew quite happily.

 

No recollection of anything dramatic in the pitch control.

 

 

[Birdseye]

Here you go:Cessna C336 C337 Aircraft history performance and specifications

CESSNA 337 Super Skymaster - SKYbrary Aviation Safety

Where's the link to the POH?

 

 

[Yenn]

Ive never flown one but I do know that with a rear engine failure they have a rate of climb of about minus 300 feet per minute. I lost a friend years ago who tried to retract the UC when he had a rear engine failure on take off. Apart from that I think they were a great plane.

 

 

[Mick]

I knew a guy who owned one. He reckoned that when doing a power on stall you did not need a seat belt.....

 

Because your butt reached right out & grabbed hold of the seat!!!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Thank you chaps. . . .I figured that someone woud know something about the type.

 

It seems to me as though I heard old Hank incorrectly. . . as I'd already thought it seemed counter to perceived logic. . . .

 

Thanks for all the info. . . I have only seen two of these things in the UK, and one of them is just a fuselage, used as a parachute training ground aid, standing on blocks to teach correct 'Exit' procedure !

 

 

[Birdseye]

Thank you chaps. . . .I figured that someone woud know something about the type.It seems to me as though I heard old Hank incorrectly. . . as I'd already thought it seemed counter to perceived logic. . . .

 

Thanks for all the info. . . I have only seen two of these things in the UK, and one of them is just a fuselage, used as a parachute training ground aid, standing on blocks to teach correct 'Exit' procedure !

Try this link Phil, might have something useful:

 

http://www.jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Cessna-1971-Super-Skymaster-337-POH.pdf

 

 

[MikeWebb]

I'm sure that there are some instructors and greying 'Eagles' on this thread, I wonder if any of you have any experience with the Cessn 337 'Push-me-Pull-you type ? . . .I ask as a result of a conversation I had whilst bantering with 'Hank' an elderly American tourist feller a few weeks ago, in the UK with his Ladywife on a canal boat vacation. . . who said he had a lot of 'Time' on the type.I had around 4-5 hours 'Hands on' experience in Indonesia in the late 1970s, with a Dutch chap who flew various types of small cargo loads, including seafood, ( by the bloody rank smell inside it ) And it seemed a nice, 'Beefy' thing to fly, best description would be flying a piece of earthmoving equipment. . .

 

Hank said that if you had an engine failure on the rear engine, without a full load, it wasn't really a big issue, but if the front one failed, then it was very very difficult in the pitch control department, as you needed quite a lot of rearwards control force applied as well as full nose-up trim to maintain level flight. . .Since I had only two flights in this beastie, I never got to study the POH, and prior to speaking to this tourist bloke, it had never crossed my mind. And it WAS a loooong time ago. . .

 

This sounds counter intuitive to me, if the propwash from the rear engine is blasting across the elevator. . . .? Is this a feature that anyone else knows about ? I admit that, although I walked around the bird doing the external checks with the pilot, I cannot recall if the elevator is 'Full Width, but my question still stands . . .

 

The problem with being a 'Jack of all planes - master of none' is that some detaills are easily forgotten. .. ( ! )

 

NOTE* This was one of the 'All Sorts' in my personal avatar. . . . ( ! )

I'm sure that there are some instructors and greying 'Eagles' on this thread, I wonder if any of you have any experience with the Cessn 337 'Push-me-Pull-you type ? . . .I ask as a result of a conversation I had whilst bantering with 'Hank' an elderly American tourist feller a few weeks ago, in the UK with his Ladywife on a canal boat vacation. . . who said he had a lot of 'Time' on the type.I had around 4-5 hours 'Hands on' experience in Indonesia in the late 1970s, with a Dutch chap who flew various types of small cargo loads, including seafood, ( by the bloody rank smell inside it ) And it seemed a nice, 'Beefy' thing to fly, best description would be flying a piece of earthmoving equipment. . .

 

Hank said that if you had an engine failure on the rear engine, without a full load, it wasn't really a big issue, but if the front one failed, then it was very very difficult in the pitch control department, as you needed quite a lot of rearwards control force applied as well as full nose-up trim to maintain level flight. . .Since I had only two flights in this beastie, I never got to study the POH, and prior to speaking to this tourist bloke, it had never crossed my mind. And it WAS a loooong time ago. . .

 

This sounds counter intuitive to me, if the propwash from the rear engine is blasting across the elevator. . . .? Is this a feature that anyone else knows about ? I admit that, although I walked around the bird doing the external checks with the pilot, I cannot recall if the elevator is 'Full Width, but my question still stands . . .

 

The problem with being a 'Jack of all planes - master of none' is that some detaills are easily forgotten. .. ( ! )

 

NOTE* This was one of the 'All Sorts' in my personal avatar. . . . ( ! )

I have quite a few hours on this type and although I never suffered a genuine engine failure I do not recall any issue with pitch control. A noisy but good aircraft that would cook the rear engine on the ground if you did nit watch it -and you needed to understand the fuel system or you could be in trouble- but otherwise no real vises.

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Speaking with a total of 5 hours on GA twins there is no requirement to achieve a positive climb gradient for the second segment, i.e. The remaining engine will only take you to the crash site depending on the weight at take off.

 

 

[facthunter]

Later certified twins are required to make a minimum climb gradient. At max weight for the conditions this seems not a lot of performance with critical speed maintained and correct flying technique required. Older bashed around planes may have deteriorated a bit, and there is some scepticism about their ability to do it, but I don't quite accept that they won't. IF you don't achieve blue line speed it won't be controllable and if you go a bit faster it won't climb. This is just like when you approach absolute ceiling. (Max altitude) either side of the absolute only speed it will achieve climb, it doesn't . ANY loss of power from any operating engine has a big effect when there's no surplus power to achieve a climb..Nev

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

Just quoting the FAA Reg that do not require any single engine climb performance for light twins <6000lbs OR have a stall speed of 61kts or less.

 

Again with limited GA experience I wouldn't have a clue what a/c types that includes?

 

 

[facthunter]

70 Years ago nearly all of them didn't maintain height with an engine shut down. Dragons, Miles Gemini/ Monospar They often didn't have wheels that retract and the props that didn't feather. Even the Avro Anson doesn't have feathering props .You had 2 chances of not making it. In the 90's I kept my command multi engine rating and always had to do engine out work to renew it. You don't actually feather them as it's not safe . The throttle is retarded fully until you go through the identify and feather checks and then set to zero thrust to simulate the feathered state. Of course it wasn't done at max weight but VMC (a) comes into it based on being able to maintain heading within set tolerences, when coping with the engine failure, just after V1 (decision speed)

 

 

[Bennyboy320]

You definatly get spoilt with 2 engine jets, even in the sim at 40 degrees celsius & MTOW after a V1 cut obstacle clearance never a problem, if is is just follow the company designed engine out procedure.

 

My 5 hours in the Duchess to do my CIR was an eye opener with regards to the limited performance of these a/c, I would hate to be in one at MTOW.

 

 

[ben87r]

It's a pretty small window of time that makes me nervous. Once cleaned up with a bit of height should be able to manage a landing.

 

A mate of mine had a failure in a PA-31 at MTOW or close to, was in the northern parts of the country and he only managed a few hundred feet but it was enough for a successful landing.

 

From memory there is a difference for charter/RPT CAT AC here with them having to be able to maintain height in ISA at 5000'

 

And private AWK only having to have a positive rate of climb on one?

 

 

[frank marriott]

From memory there is a difference for charter/RPT CAT AC here with them having to be able to maintain height in ISA at 5000'And private AWK only having to have a positive rate of climb on one?

Ben your studies are more recent then mine, but as I recall it (on CHTR at least) to file IFR you had to be able to maintain LSAL on one engine. But I wouldn't put money on it - may well have been company policy, or commen sence. The important point is what is required NOW, and I would defer to your current knowledge.

 

 

[ben87r]

It was more a certification requirement Frank than a flight planning performance requirement, it defined which cat th AC could be registered and maintained. I'll see if I can find it.

 

These days as far as I'm aware the only requirement is CAR178 which covers minimum height to be flown (LSALT) nothing specific about maintaining one one, that's left up to common sense.

 

With the old reg Frank were you able to drift down to a lower lower safe if it was available?

 

Cheers.

 

 

[frank marriott]

With the old reg Frank were you able to drift down to a lower lower safe if it was available?Cheers.

Yep, recalculate LSAL en route, e.g. After passing a spot height.

 

 

[Ryanm]

Got a few hundred hours on these things. They're pretty easy to fly and a bit of fun.

 

Never noticed any major pitch issues as you described.

 

Something that was drummed into me early on was that it always pays to start applying power to the rear engine first. This is because you can't see or hear it over the noise of the one up front. The rear engine is the "critical engine" but not in the same respect as a conventional twin.

 

Not a great performer in hot and heavy conditions, but so long as you respected it, it's was a pleasure. Just bring ear plugs or a good headset!

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Got a few hundred hours on these things. They're pretty easy to fly and a bit of fun.Never noticed any major pitch issues as you described.

Something that was drummed into me early on was that it always pays to start applying power to the rear engine first. This is because you can't see or hear it over the noise of the one up front. The rear engine is the "critical engine" but not in the same respect as a conventional twin.

 

Not a great performer in hot and heavy conditions, but so long as you respected it, it's was a pleasure. Just bring ear plugs or a good headset!

Back in them thar days mate. . . .we had a Mic hanging on the panel, and a bloody great speaker so that you could hear the radio, which was always at flat out volume. . .always wondered why they didn't use headsets in a lot of 'Smaller' aircraft in the 1970s. . . . .Did my flight training in PA28s and C-150s, ( @ Groupair - Casey AIrfield, Berwick, Vic. ) NONE of which were equipped with Pouffie headsets. . . must be why I'm mutton Jeff now. . . . . . .Yer what mate. . ? ? ? ? FCS, even the Tiger I used to fly in the UK in the late 1950s had bloody headsets ( gosport tubes ) !