Aircraft incident Nanneela Vici

[facthunter]

A spinning prop has a lot of potential to absorb power, that's why most turboprops have auto feather. ( They can absorb well over twice the rated thrust if still spinning the turbine as the reduction is a very high ratio.) The same principle applies to an idling motor but to a much lesser extent. The effects not been quantified in a readily available source. Airlines or charter companies doing assy training on "pistons" set a power figure that's supposed to approximate zero thrust, once the shut down checks are called, being the equivalent of feathering the motor. Nev

 

 

[alf jessup]

have you checked out how many feet after that fan stops you lose before you obtain best glide speedneil

Well Neil I usually convert my excess cruise speed to height and gain a 100 or so to get to best glide speed

That's what I was taught

 

And don't forget you will glide further with a tailwind so always know which way the wind is blowing while over not so nice terrain. Plan to fly so the closer point on the tailwind side if need be is my motto and yes practice, know and get a feel of what your plane glides like

 

I've done many over the last few years ranging from 19nm out at 7500 ft and made it back with the help of the TW for the first few thousand ft lost

 

Done lots of others from 10 or so out from varying altitudes some made some not

 

Doesn't make me perfect but does help knowing what your aircraft is capable of

 

Footnote

 

If it is EFATO or during climb it is nose over straight away or after the what the F*#£ startle factor just happened passes

 

Sorry Frank didn't see your post before posting

 

 

[storchy neil]

Dead silence

 

Sorry frank the first time that complete silence greated my ears I personally lost 250 ft about average for a beginner says the instructor with a bloody grin from ear to ear

 

the second time 100 ft that is because he explains you aren't going anywhere except down without that fan so why not get nose down first and stop that drag you will go further straight ahead

 

As he explained you wash off speed by lifting the nose so why would you want to slow down by trying to climb

 

Once again alf that depends on the plane the storch has book glide ratio of 13/1 so say you weigh 100kgs I weigh 74kgs who is going to get the best distance

 

Neil

 

 

[dsam]

Excess speed to height was my training too (including gliders). Trouble is, the surprise factor may take me a second or two to react. With a sudden stop of the engine my training will kick in. Gradual power loss... my instinct will probably see me checking for a reason, not suddenly climbing.

 

I'm not saying that's the right reaction... just human nature.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Dead silenceSorry frank the first time that complete silence greated my ears I personally lost 250 ft about average for a beginner says the instructor with a bloody grin from ear to ear

the second time 100 ft that is because he explains you aren't going anywhere except down without that fan so why not get nose down first and stop that drag you will go further straight ahead

 

As he explained you wash off speed by lifting the nose so why would you want to slow down by trying to climb

 

Neil

Because Neil that 50 ft you may have gained might just get you to where you wanted to go and remember it's easier to lose height than gain it with nothing working up front

All instructors obviously train different, I'm glad mine trained me this way as it seems most practical to convert the excess energy to height

 

 

[facthunter]

The action should fit the situation. Your surplus speed is energy which can be used even to do a power off stall turn, the sharpest course reversal. or a normal turn where you need above best glide speed. Also If the best (only) suitable country is behind you flying further away is not clever You minimise or don't fly away from where you will eventually land. You may already be too high for the place you intend to land so using speed for height is not applicable. IF you wish to turn you must increase speed in the turn to minimise the "flying away from where you want to go" effect rather than stay flying straight ahead until the turn speed was achieved. How many have practised entering a descending turn and increasing speed (and bank angle) when you can? Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Because Neil that 50 ft you may have gained might just get you to where you wanted to go and remember it's easier to lose height than gain it with nothing working up frontAll instructors obviously train different, I'm glad mine trained me this way as it seems most practical to convert the excess energy to height

Theoretically this is correct, and if you reacted subconsciously in a fraction of a second and then reset the nose, assuming glide correctly, you would pull it off, and that would probably happen in a situation where an instructor gave you prior warning.

However, in the genuine engine failure when the "this can't be happening to me" feeling kicks in the first action can take 3 or more seconds, so you will be behind the profile, pulling the nose up when the speed decay has lost most of the benefit.

 

I've never been told to do that by an instructor. In all cases the first action has been nose down to glide speed.

 

 

[farri]

The action should fit the situation. Nev

Absolutely!!! Over the years, I`ve had enough complete engine failures, in the air, to know that is correct...Knowing the correct action to take is the first step in landing safely but the correct action depends on the situation, so, for each flight I do, I keep the situation within my ability to handle the aircraft and what I know the aircraft is capable of doing, unfortunately! this knowledge comes mostly from experience and experience comes from doing.

 

How many have practised entering a descending turn and increasing speed (and bank angle) when you can? Nev

At least one! I make it part of my flying.

 

Frank.

 

 

[poteroo]

The action should fit the situation. Your surplus speed is energy which can be used even to do a power off stall turn, the sharpest course reversal. or a normal turn where you need above best glide speed. Also If the best (only) suitable country is behind you flying further away is not clever You minimise or don't fly away from where you will eventually land. You may already be too high for the place you intend to land so using speed for height is not applicable. IF you wish to turn you must increase speed in the turn to minimise the "flying away from where you want to go" effect rather than stay flying straight ahead until the turn speed was achieved. How many have practised entering a descending turn and increasing speed (and bank angle) when you can? Nev

Yes, agree Nev - it all depends..... as the saying goes. From cruise, I'm a believer in pulling a steep turn 40-45 aob, towards where the most promising forced landing area is: this also mirrors a full reversal or 90 degree turn after efato. Speed converted to direction with minimal height loss.

 

One thing that I see consistently in both RAAus and GA BFR's is pilots allowing the nose to drop before bleeding the IAS back to best glide = a huge loss of altitude while they fiddle & fart about with an emergency checklist, or carry out vital actions. This will kill you. I really emphasise the need to be heading toward safety at best glide before fiddling with your head inside!

 

happy days,

 

 

[storchy neil]

As I stated dead silence a hole new scenario so ban shoot eletricute me for shutting down the motor sitting behind an idled motors teaches you jack shit your brain sees now danger at all

 

Neil

 

 

[Bats]

I've had instructors pushing both methods at various times. Having given it quite a bit of thought and discussed it with people who are cleverer than me, I've decided that the only time a "convert speed to altitude" pull would be worth it, is in something fast and heavy, flying low. Military or possibly crop spraying in other words. A little bugsmasher just doesn't have the energy to make it worthwhile, if I'm low I'm likely to be fairly slow too and in deflecting controls, plus the additional drag from the G increase, I'd be throwing precious energy away, for minimal return. In all the successful practice forced landings and 2 real emergencies I've dealt with, I arrived at my chosen field with a little extra height in my pocket and slipped, added flap as necessary, S turned etc to get down to the desired approach path, so the extra 100' say would be largely irrelevant. I think I'd generally get more benefit from holding the nose level as the speed bleeds away and lowering to maintain best glide, a more natural (to me) approach. Any major control deflection would be better invested in turning toward safety.

 

As for the difference between a windmilling prop and a deadstick - I can't say I found it that significant in the types I've tried it in - plus I tend to be quite focussed on training and although a stationary prop does add a layer of pressure, I'm hard on myself if I don't perform properly so a PFL isn't just a jolly little romp for me.

 

 

[facthunter]

Instructors shouldn't PUSH any particular method. If they do the right thing by you, they will explain the pro's and con's of both, but when you are trying to get people through in 20 hours the quick fix, one size fits all, It's black and white, keep it simple, prevails. Do you use the crab or sideslip method? , is another example as if one technique is always the way to do it. Some people won't sideslip a plane if someone gave them a six pack, and if you press the point it's a shambles . OK If you're flying a B 737, you don't need currency, when you only fly IT. Nev

 

 

[Bats]

Within reason, I'll generally go along with whatever an instructor prefers, some tend to have fairly fixed ideas on what's best. Even if they don't convert me to their way of thinking, I feel it sharpens up your flying to try new things and different methods of doing things. I quite agree though, the best instructors are those who suggest alternatives, demonstrate them, but ultimately allow a pilot to stick with what they are most comfortable with (with the usual provisos of safety, the POH etc). I'm thinking here more of the AFR or conversion scenario, than ab initio instruction. Eg in RA Aus types my preference remains for a glide approach, but having originally trained under the GA system, I'm quite happy to do a powered approach if an instructor prefers that it be done that way.

 

 

[storchy neil]

Nev that is why after about 7 to 10 hrs grab your log book go and do two or three hrs with a different instructor

 

I know you will find each instructor different that cranky grumpy old instructor maybe he will show you his versions that may be just what you need he's been there done it ( no nev ain't talking about you )

 

Communication between an instructor and student is paramount a student who won't be told and a instructor who can't listen or the other way round is a disaster

 

When I was teaching persons to operate machines my pet hate was persons that started the machine before putting on the seatbelt years latter called in to see the younge bloke he had broken the windscreen of a excavator with his head when it tipped ford no seat belt on

 

I personally was gifted that I found three instructors that could communicate and show me what they considered would make me want to continue flying each one had slightly different teaching method each one at times threw away the rule book as they new at some stage the sheeet is going to hit the fan Neil

 

 

[facthunter]

Many instructors tend to be idiosynchratic. (have some individual weird ideas) Pilots like to think they are individuals and a bit of a non conformist, above all else.This has always been the case since the beginning of flying instruction. Students cling to every word they say in the beginning, as the instructor is up there with god, and the plane is the chariot of the gods, regardless of how Basic it is. Misinformation jumps out and bites you anytime in your career, and you might think.. "why did I do That?" It can go back to something you were told long ago. Learning is programming your mind. Like a computer. IF.. Garbage in... Garbage out... happens.

 

Even in high level training there can be errors or ambiguities, BAD systems logic installed that turns out to be dangerous and is modified, EVENTUALLY when enough experienced people say "that's BS having it like that. FIX it Now, before someone else dies". Unless things make sense to you, enquire until they do. Just remembering something by rote is far more difficult and less useful than remembering something you have understood, and knowing why it's so important. Harder at the beginning, but easier thereafter.Nev

 

 

[facthunter]

The "don't fly over what you can't land on" actually means can't reach a place to land safely on, from.

 

A case in point. Departing Mt Hotham. Vic. Hilly wooded country everywhere. If you do a spiralling climb to a height suitable you can range to cleared areas westwards, or return for landing at Hotham. Bit of extra fuel with much more peace of mind. Landing in the canopies of tall trees on steep mountain slopes is not real safe, nor very visible for someone looking for you. Nev