building my Savannah-S in germany

[rankamateur]

I assure you, we all learn to remove rivets. Sometimes quite a lot!Certainly, I have learned (the hard way) to assemble as far as possible with clekos before reaching for the rivet gun.

So, if the only issue now is the one hole per rib, you should be able to cleko the skins in place with good results.

I started building mine with the intention of doing it once and well and removing no rivets at all. Tell him he is dreaming! I built twelve flaperons in one eight day stretch previously, but still mucked up some of the rivets into the trailing end of the ribs where the rivet tails clash, on the flaperon for my own build. They certainly were not the first ones I had to drill out. I had kept a list of all the drilled out rivets, having counted all my rivets I was able to know how many short the kit was supplied with. I came to the conclusion that rivets had not been budgeted for option upgrades like the extended baggage and long range tanks.

 

 

[rmorton]

Are there any guides on what is an acceptable drilled out hole and what isn't? some of mine were very slightly loose and others I ended up with a notch in the rim of the hole. I guess the soft aluminium will spread a certain amount to fill such defects?

 

 

[MajorTom]

So, if the only issue now is the one hole per rib, you should be able to cleko the skins in place with good results.

I'm in good hope..... It's two holes per rib ( upper + lower skin ) I glue a small peace of scrap alu unter the wrong holes to give the rivets a firm grip. I hope that is the right idea!?

 

And drilling out rivets is unexpected easy. From what I have seen on videos, you have to get the steel out first. That needs some force and a hammer. But when I tried to do without,it worked well. The head came off easy and the rivet could be pull out from behind.

 

 

[rmorton]

I find the best way id to cut/pull the steel out from the back if it is accessible, then use an undersized bit to widen the hole then slowly drill with the correct sized bit just to the point where the rivet either snaps or spins. Then remove the rest by either drifting it out with a punch or again cutting with wire cutters from both sides. The problems I have had have come from either not being able to get the steel pin outing having drill in from the side, or being too enthusiastic with the full sized bit and drilling right through with a slightly eccentric hole or just making the hole a loose fit. I am sure my technique is set to improve though as practice does make perfect! :(

 

 

[IBob]

Are there any guides on what is an acceptable drilled out hole and what isn't? some of mine were very slightly loose and others I ended up with a notch in the rim of the hole. I guess the soft aluminium will spread a certain amount to fill such defects?

I am using the drill as little as possible (very rarely) during my build.

I use the podgers to work holes into alignment, also the holes have good clearance for the rivets, so it is usually possible to get a rivet in even when the holes are not perfectly aligned.

 

Good podgers make a big difference. And I found the 4mm pin punch tapered at the tip essential for podgering the A5 rivets once I got to the fuselage.

 

Something that looks like it will not line up will often do so with a bit of working.

 

It also makes a big difference in some areas what order you put the clekos in. (Example: putting the firewall in I struggled clekoing downwards, but it went fine if I started at the bottom and worked up the sides).

 

 

[rankamateur]

That needs some force and a hammer. But when I tried to do without,it worked well. The head came off easy and the rivet could be pull out from behind.

Be very cautious hammering on your airframe because you can easily cause distortions. Use a pair of pinchers of the type used to squeeze ear clamps to cut the back of the rivet, pull out the stem, then drill carefully. There is one style of pincher that has an off-set jaw which pinches on the end as well as the side which are good for accessing tight spots.

 

Bikeservice Motorcycle Double Ear Clamp Pliers, BS2904 | eBay

 

 

[IBob]

I'm in good hope..... It's two holes per rib ( upper + lower skin ) I glue a small peace of scrap alu unter the wrong holes to give the rivets a firm grip. I hope that is the right idea!?And drilling out rivets is unexpected easy. From what I have seen on videos, you have to get the steel out first. That needs some force and a hammer. But when I tried to do without,it worked well. The head came off easy and the rivet could be pull out from behind.

That sounds like a perfect fix, MT, though I doubt many builders would do this:

I think that, provided the skins are securely riveted together at that point, it is not so important if the hole in the rib is enlarged. The adjacent rivets will prevent any movement between skins and rib.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Be very cautious hammering on your airframe because you can easily cause distortions. Use a pair of pinchers of the type used to squeeze ear clamps to cut the back of the rivet, pull out the stem, then drill carefully. There is one style of pincher that has an off-set jaw which pinches on the end as well as the side which are good for accessing tight spots.Bikeservice Motorcycle Double Ear Clamp Pliers, BS2904 | eBay

The tool is the same as the one used at Aerokits, handles may be a little shorter on this one though, may even make it more useful in tight spaces unless the hand is not strong enough to apply the squeeze.

 

Oetiker 14100387 Side Jaw Compound Action 1099 Clamp Crimper Pincers Pliers Tool | eBay These ones are even better if you have weaker grip! It really annoys me how much extra we pay for everything we buy in this wonderful country we live in. Oetiker 14100387 Side Jaw Compound Action Clamp Crimper Pincers Pliers Tool 1099 | eBay

 

 

[MajorTom]

That sounds like a perfect fix

Yes in theory.... all my little alu pieces came off, when I tried to drill them. The 5 minute epoxi did not glue to well, despite all preping.

 

Use a pair of pinchers of the type used to squeeze ear clamps to cut the back of the rivet, pull out the stem

Now I get it. (Had to use a dictionary) When you have access, you cut the backside ( the knobby part) of the rivet. Will try next time. Richard just told me, I have my middle plastic piece on the wrong side of the longeron. Seem I start practacing right away....

Although I can't se how this matters!???

 

And one more thing. Did anybody else had this missing hole to assemble the rib?

 

 

 

 

 

[MajorTom]

Well, the stabiliser is finished. It took more effort than expected.

 

There where the non fitting holes on all ribs where the skins overlap. This single hole on the wrong side which gave me trouble and the first cable to install. Finallay I took the nose skin off again to put some primer on the skins, where they mate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IBob]

It is a journey, MT...it's a very big Meccano set...but one requiring the builder to pay attention and make decisions too.

 

As I discover each time I allow my attention to wander...)

 

 

[MajorTom]

Finished the elevator yesterday. All went well. Also did the first solid rivets.

 

As suggested I used a modified pliers. Friend of my mom did the mould on one plier-side with a radius moulding cutter.

 

The pliers are easy to operate with one hand and have enough power for the tiny rivets.

 

Only thing is that the shop head tends to wander a little out of the middle.

 

I dont know how much is acceptable???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rmorton]

You are doing really well! I wonder if you put a dome on the other side of the pliers if that would help centralise the rivet? I guess its the wing next for you?

 

 

[MajorTom]

Hey Richard, how are you coming along?

 

I had a discussion about a mould at both sides of the pliers, but decided against it.

 

Next step are still smaller parts because I want to stay at long as possible in my nice, compfy and warm workshop in the cellar.

 

So I would do the ailerons and flapps.

 

And there are still the tips to do. Maybe I try to reproduce some copies of the plastic ones this weekend.

 

 

[rmorton]

Recovering from a bad cold or flu, so not much progress. I am currently riveting the stabiliser frame, then I need to prime the top and bottom skins so this could take a while as I also need to go to the UK to pick up the engine :)

 

 

[MajorTom]

Made a real mess this weekend. All sticky and lots of glass fiber snowballs...

 

But the result is o.k. .... the weight of the epoxi + glass parts is a little more than half of the originals. The thickness is 0,75 mm which will make good fit, when I use the alternative method of attaching the tips.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rmorton]

You've done that before havent you? :)

 

 

[MajorTom]

You've done that before havent you? :)

Sure, the parts are not to big.

And I'm a RC-Model builder like you. And when I remember right, so is Kyle and who knows who else....

 

We all start small and grow bigger eventually.

 

 

[MajorTom]

Thinking about rivnuts....

 

When I attach the tips on elevator and so on, I plan to use aluminium stripes like suggested by Kyle and others. Then I would like to use rivnuts. I ordered some allready. I got very nice, high quality M4 aluminium rivnuts. And then realized, all other in the kit are steel or stainless steel!? Can I use them? Can I use them together with stainless steel skrews?

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

shouldnt be a problem to use the alu rivnuts. Its only to hold on the plastic tips and stainless screws are fine

 

 

[rmorton]

I am guessing it is all to do with dissimilar metals and corrosion. I think stainless and ali are fine though.

 

 

[MajorTom]

I have problems with the solid riveting. The shop head is often out of the middle. The rivets seem so long and loose in the holes. When I squeeze they go sideways. My pliers are machine crafted and plane / parallel.

 

The other problem is the skin on the upper side. Seems the longeron could have been bent a little more. The skin is being pulled down by the ribs. Also the nose half-ribs are realy tight. On the second aileron I did some bending and everything is nice. BUT what to do with the first one??? Redo it? Bending the longeron a little throught the skin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IBob]

Hi MT.

 

I think the solid rivets as supplied can be challenging, even for practised operators using a proper squeezer.

 

I borrowed a squeezer, and bought the correct fitting (snap) for AN470 AD3-3 rivets, to go in it.

 

When I received this, I discovered it did not fit the rivets supplied. So I bought AN470 AD3-3 rivets.

 

4oz. of them cost about $15, and would probably do two aircraft.

 

I then came up with a system, using the edge of my bench to align the squeezer for each rivet.

 

This made it a very easy job: all my rivets appear identical and my trailing edges are absolutely straight, even though I did not clamp the trailing edge to a straight edge during riveting.

 

There are some pics of this in my build threads.

 

Be aware that the AN470 AD3-3 rivets are hard, not soft and needa stronger squeeze.

 

 

[IBob]

With the flaperons, I do not remember having to do any extra bending. Assembly would be:

 

(First debur all components)

 

Cleko longeron on one side.

 

Use belts to gently pull the skin closed (more or less).

 

Cleko longeron on other side.

 

Cleko trailing edge.

 

Cleko ribs.

 

So, everything is clekoed, and I can see if I have done it correctly, and if I have any problems with the assembly method, or with the assembled part.

 

Then:

 

Disassemble, clean and prime.

 

Reassemble with clekos.

 

Finally, when it all looks good, rivet.

 

I think it may be better to rivet the back of the ribs after riveting the trailing edge (and the same when doing the wing trailing edges). I am not sure of this, but I think the trailing edge is straighter this way, especially on the wings.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I do not think I would try to bend the longeron through the skin.

 

 

[MajorTom]

I think it may be better to rivet the back of the ribs after riveting the trailing edge (and the same when doing the wing trailing edges). I am not sure of this, but I think the trailing edge is straighter this way, especially on the wings.

Thanks again Bob. Thats what I did. But on the better half of the 2. and 3. and 4. I just left the clecos in until I have a solution.

There is just one shop in germany I know of, who sells Squeezers. The have a couple of weeks delivery time. Quite frustrating.