building my Savannah-S in germany

[MajorTom]

I borrowed a squeezer, and bought the correct fitting (snap) for AN470 AD3-3 rivets, to go in it.When I received this, I discovered it did not fit the rivets supplied. So I bought AN470 AD3-3 rivets.

That's confusing....

The manual says the rivets in the kit are AN470 AD3-3 ?!

 

But when I see your pictures, the thiny little buggers I have got look quite different .... small round head like half of a globe .... pictures of real AN470 show a head which is more flat...

 

????

 

 

[rmorton]

Hi Thomas,

 

that must be very frustrating! I got a set of squeezers from Browns and it seems to work well. I can't see that they take much load and so long as they grip the two sheets and don't allow them to slide against each other it should be ok even f the heads are a little displaced.

 

 

[IBob]

I believe RMorton is correct that the solid rivets do not have to be 'perfect'. There is a table somewhere showing head displacement etc vs strength. I think it may have been in Vans build information, but I cannot find it. Perhaps another member can provide a link?

 

The reason I took the approach I did, is that I knew another local builder had found the rivets difficult, even with expert help.

 

So, as an amateur myself, I got (borrow) good equipment, then spent a little time setting up a system so that I was not doing it freehand:

 

If the rivets are to be straight and more or less identical, then the rivet and tool have to be positioned and used the same at each hole. I would not be able to do that freehand.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I found it a lot easier to get a good result before I had to wear glasses, now it is a much greater battle.

 

 

[IBob]

I found it a lot easier to get a good result before I had to wear glasses, now it is a much greater battle.

I wear glasses too, Steve. And yes, you're right: while I've never been very good at holding tools 'straight', they do seem to introduce an extra difficulty.

 

 

[rankamateur]

I also found if you could hold the squeeze in one hand it was a lot easier to get a straight rivet. Just because the tool has two handles sure doesn't mean it takes two hands to drive it. On a warm day those soft little rivets nearly squeeze themselves.

 

 

[IBob]

I also found if you could hold the squeeze in one hand it was a lot easier to get a straight rivet. Just because the tool has two handles sure doesn't mean it takes two hands to drive it. On a warm day those soft little rivets nearly squeeze themselves.

I used the squeeze one handed, with one handle also steadied and aligned against the bench edge. That left my other hand free to lightly pinch the trailing edge.

It was very quick once I got going, and very easy to replicate the same squeeze for each rivet.

 

On another build, I would try a slightly shorter rivet. The specified rivet is just a little long, presumably for the rudder.

 

I chokked up my wing along the bench edge as shown in the sketch, so as to be able to rest one handle of the squeeze to the bench edge, with the tool correctly on the rivet head. (Okay, bad sketch, but you get the idea.)

 

 

 

 

[MajorTom]

Thanks again for your Help. I'm sure the strongness of my riveting results would be o.k. like you all suggest. But I'm also affraid I might fail in the inspection.

 

So I ordered the right rivets AN470 AD-3-3 an a propper die.

 

I'm still not satisfied with the upper, aft skin on the flapperons. There is a dent in the place where the first rivetafter the longeron is in the rib. The outline of the rib just don't takes the thickness off the longeron into account, like the ribs of e.g. the rudder does. How did you deal with this? When I see Bobs flapperons, the look nice!!!

 

 

 

 

[rankamateur]

The last rivet before the trailing edge in each rib is a problem fouling on the tail of the one coming from the opposite surface. The first gives no trouble, the second give great grief. With slight pressure on the rivet gun, the tail can be offset and straighten the gun as it fires. The standard rivet is really too long for this situation but a good result is achievable with some practice (read drill out the rejects).

 

 

[rmorton]

would it be a bad thing to add a strip of packing material to the rib to get the same level as the spar? Maybe something like mylar or plastic card?

 

 

[MajorTom]

The last rivet before the trailing edge in each rib is a problem fouling on the tail of the one coming from the opposite surface

No, I disagree. This two rivets have a nice (smart) offset to each other. Maybe this part has changed???

My problem with the upper skin seems to be just optics. Maybe I will try some scrap aluminium as a doubler for the ribs.

 

I will let you know.

 

How are you doing Richard?

 

 

[rmorton]

Slow progress as I had to go to the UK to get this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MajorTom]

Wow... since when is Rotax building steemengines?

 

 

[rmorton]

Hhah its all I need it would be cheaper if ran on coal too ;)

 

 

[MajorTom]

No seriously... gratulation...

 

Engine instalation is the part that worries me most. Second is paint... third is the inspector

 

 

[rmorton]

Move to France there are no inspectors until the end!! For me its Paint that worries me the most.

 

 

[rankamateur]

Hhah its all I need it would be cheaper if ran on coal too ;)

Remember the 20kg load limit in the coal bin!

 

 

[rmorton]

That will limit the range a little and if I have to go smokeless....

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Slow progress as I had to go to the UK to get this:[ATTACH]49529[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49530[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49531[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49532[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49533[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49534[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49535[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49536[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49537[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]49538[/ATTACH]

Interesting that you have 4 wire ignition modules. The engine must be fairly old ?

 

 

[rmorton]

Indeed it is a rebuilt 2004. It was rebuilt by the fellas that acts as the LAA expert on Rotax, so it should be as new. Saw it run and vibrates less than the new ones in our club plane. Cant wait to get to the stage where I can try it properly.

 

 

[MajorTom]

Yesterday I deriveted a flapperon. Very easy with this electronics pliers...

 

The aft ribs look pulled upward near the longeron. Seems something, with the thickness of the longeron, put in betwen could help.

 

I will try...

 

 

 

 

 

[dan tonner]

I am interested in those "electronics pliers" Major Tom. Am I correct to assume these were used to snip off one side or the other of the solid rivets? Did you have to modify them

 

I never was too happy with the trailing edge rivets on the wings, flaperons, rudder or trim tabs when I built my own Sav but after seeing what's possible with the right squeezer, the proper rivets and fitted rivet sets, (thank you IBob) I'm about ready to give it another go. The issue that's been keeping me at bay is how to remove the installed solid rivets without damaging the skins by grinding off the heads or elongating the holes with a skating drill bit.

 

 

[MajorTom]

Hi Dan,

 

it is something like this. There are many nice types and brands. You might want to round the tip a little, so you don't scratch the skin.

 

Then just cut of the rivet directly on the skin. The shophead gets of easily and 70% of the rivets fall / jump out instantly.

 

Xuron 170-II Micro-Shear Flush Cutter: Wire Cutters: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

 

 

[dan tonner]

Thanks Major Tom;

 

I didn't know such a tool existed - I'm looking into adding a pair or to to my shopbox.

 

All the best;

 

Fly safely,

 

Canada Dan

 

 

[MajorTom]

Just have redone one flapperon. Put a strip alu betwen skin and rib. The doubler is bent over, so the first hole after the longeron gets extra 0,8mm and the following two get 0,4mm. Result is better, but far from satisfiying.