The pre-war Messerschmitt tourer - Bf 108 Taifun

[Garfly]

This is a pretty interesting doc comparing the Spit and the 109:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpTrygZfC-g

 

 

[Litespeed]

Having seen the ME109 at Canberra- it is a very small machine compared to almost anything, and significantly smaller looking than a spitfire.

 

 

[Garfly]

Just came across this really good simulator-graphics version of the dogfights over Dover.

 

I think that watching it, I'm getting a handle for the first time on what it was really like to be in it. (Been struggling with that task of imagination since reading Reach for the Sky as a kid). Whatever its makers lack in true photo-realism is made-up-for in their ability to literally 'call the shots': whatever the ideal angle, whatever the best frame to show the aircraft and their relative positions etc. can be created by the storytellers. Add to that the painstaking aerodynamic modelling of the simulations and the obvious effort to be historically accurate (both visually and tactically) the effect is amazing.

 

It still uses lots of movie conventions - documentary and fiction - but for those of us fascinated by the aviation aspects, per se, it's really something else.

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

I doubt any recreations can convey the speed of the action; a pilot could quickly lose sight of other aircraft and find himself in empty sky. Keen eyesight was essential for survival. Subaru Sakae had a drill to develop his eyesight; he'd pick a faint star in the sky (presumably in late evening) then spin around and instantly find it again.

 

 

[Garfly]

Yes, even us weekend warriors know what it's like to quickly lose sight of other aircraft, finding ourselves in empty sky, but knowing damn well they're somewhere close. That much we can sort of imagine.

 

BTW, on the vision thing, I read somewhere that even though the Spits had the advantage of a better rear view (than the 109) the drawback was the optical distortion of the bubble canopy. In that respect the German pilots with their flat glass panes were better off; able to get a bead on their enemies at a greater distance.

 

 

[rgmwa]

A couple of interesting videos comparing the Spitfire and bf 109 cockpits. Although in the previous video, the 109 lost points because the hinged canopy made it hard for the pilot to get out quickly, the canopy was in fact able to be jettisoned in an emergency.

 

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

A couple of interesting videos comparing the Spitfire and bf 109 cockpits. Although in the previous video, the 109 lost points because the hinged canopy made it hard for the pilot to get out quickly, the canopy was in fact able to be jettisoned in an emergency...

Great videos, RG. Certainly puts a dampener on any envy you might have for BoB fighter pilots.

 

He didn't mention the ruddy great two-man crank handle for the flywheel starter which had to be stowed in the 109 cockpit.

 

 

[winsor68]

Yes the 109 is significantly smaller than the Spit & other Allied fighters. I stood next to a 109E at an airshow near Detroit in 2008 and was really surprised how small it was. I am 6' 2" and could look clear over the top of the rudder with tailwheel on the ground, standing next to the cockpit I had a full view into it. I can't do that with any other WWII fighter that I have been near. No wonder it performed, alot of horsepower in a small plane!

That is interesting.

 

 

[Garfly]

A new Bf - 108 restoration project film:

 

 

 

[Birdseye]

That is interesting.

Actual weights and dimensions of the 108, 109 and Mk1 Spitfire:

Me108

 

Empty Weight 880 kg

 

MTOW 1.385 kg

 

Wing Span 10.50 m

 

Wing Area 16.4 m²

 

Length 8.30 m

 

Height 2.30 m

 

Me109

 

Empty Weight 1.970 kg

 

MTOW 3.150 kg

 

Wing Span 9.92 m

 

Wing Area 16.1 m²

 

Length 8.85 m

 

Height 3.40 m

 

Spitfire Mk1

 

Empty Weight 2.268 kg

 

MTOW 2.911 kg

 

Wing Span 11.23 m

 

Wing Area 22.5 m²

 

Length 9.12 m

 

Height 3.02 m

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

It's amazing how compact the Bf-109 was; that small wing (dependent on automatic slats for low speed work) would have been a major factor in their high speed. The only 109 pilot I ever met was not a big bloke. It would have been a tight squeeze for pilots with bulky flying kit.

 

A flyable Emil was captured by Australian forces in North Africa. Bobby Gibbs and others flew it before the poms took it back to Britain. Decades later it was restored and Jeff Watson (of Towards 2000 fame) voiced a doco about it.

 

A General from the modern Luftwaffe came to see it and had great difficulty fitting into the tiny cockpit.

 

 

[Garfly]

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

I have watched every episode and encourage others to do so. If I could live my life over I would be an aircraft restorer like Paul.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

Finally, the Anzacs in the RAF carried a lot more than their weight. 35% of the Australians were killed, one of the highest rates of any nationality. Fighter Command's loss rate overall was 18% and the high Aussie losses are attributed to their frontline placements and extended tours.

 

"The Australian aces, Hughes, Millington, Mayers, Curchin, Cock and Hilary accounted for 60% of Australian claims and were characterised by their aggressive willingness to engage, marksmanship and a superior sense of their three-dimensional combat environment" (Adam Claasen in Dogfight:The Battle of Britain). Only Hughes and Hilary flew Spits, the others Hurricanes.

 

"Although Anzacs made up only approximTely 5% of Fighter Comman, they supplied nearly one-third of the top ten aces...between them, Hughes (Aust) and Carbury and Gray (NZ) took out 50 enemy machines in just 4 months."

 

Kaz

 

The quote of pilot loss is 18%, I have seen 20% quoted before. The losses of Australians in 77 squadron in Korea were 25%, 1 in 4 were lost. 

 

 

[onetrack]

In both World Wars, Australian troops, made up only 10% of the total of the fighting forces - but they were responsible for capturing over 20% of enemy territory, enemy soldiers, and enemy war materiel.

 

We have always punched well above our weight - and a classic trait of Australians when fighting, is personal initiative. That is, instead of waiting for orders, they take it upon themselves to make important decisions, on the spot.

 

 

[old man emu]

a classic trait of Australians when fighting, is personal initiative. That is, instead of waiting for orders, they take it upon themselves to make important decisions, on the spot.

 

That's what volunteers do, and probably why, in a tight spot, Australian military personnel make the Johnny-on-the-spot decisions that show the ability to analyse and develop plans for the best outcome.

 

I'm hearing stuff on the grapevine how the same ability operated during the NSW bushfires. Apparently, in the beginning of the crisis, control of fire grounds was in the hands of "Fire & Rescue NSW", the permanent fire brigade organisation. Their Commanders were sent out into the bush to direct Rural Fire Service units. These Commanders were well trained in dealing with fires in urban situations, but had little or no training in dealing with fires in bushland. The majority of them were sensible and simply asked RFS unit leaders to get on with it, but to keep them in the loop so that the  command structure appeared to be operating. Where this happened, the RFS was effective. Of course you always get the Mandarin who wants to lord it over everyone. Where the odd one of these popped up, the RFS was ineffective.

 

Finally, a state of emergency was declared, and overall command was placed in the hands of the RFS. They can't extinguish all the fires, but they are doing a better job of protecting life and property by using their local knowledge.

 

 

[Yenn]

The reason the Aussies made decisions and the Poms didn’t is because the Poms would not allow lower ranks to think. They were there to do what the higher ranks decided. I speak from experience.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Back on thred: According to Wikipedia the BF 108 had a humongous engine 8-12.67 L depending on variant. Seems a lot of capacity,  by today's standards, to lift 4 seats.