PPL Flight Test -- PASSED!!

[aplund]

Hi aplund,Congrats on the PPL, I started with RA-Aus then after an issue with a Jabiru I went to GA - PPL, NVFR, IR and bought a C172M and never looked back. A couple of notes regarding some questions above;

Why a C172 and not a 152? Especially for training a C172 will last a lot longer (engine wise) than a 152. Family had a flying school back in the 70's and initially had 152's, none got to TBO, not good in hot weather etc. Went to 172's and cost of maintenance dropped nearly by half. My Cessna has done nearly 11,000 hours but the previous owner rebuilt the wings, tailplane, rudder, new firewall, paint job etc so passed the SIDS with total cost $3000 (over two annuals). It has the MOGAS STC so with Fuel, maintenance, insurance, hangarage etc on 75 hours/year it costs me $130/hour to fly. I paid $45,000 for it (Two years of hire&fly) and did a lot of my training in it. It has nearly paid for itself in 5 years.

 

With regard to RA-Aus conversion, I see they have changed to rules, it used to be no minimum hours unless it was for a Low Performance Aircraft (<55knots) but now it is 5 hours with 1 hour PIC. If your ultimate goal is to own an aircraft then do the sums. There are good Pipers/Cessnas/Other (Piels, Aeronca, beechcraft etc) aircraft out there for $25K-$60 while Tecnams, Evektors, CT etc can be $40K above that. $40,000 pays for a lot of fuel and maintenance. With maintenance, there is no reason why a 100 hourly should cost $5000. Under the CASA regulations there are a lot of things you can do yourself and prepare the aircraft for inspection, reducing the cost considerably. If you just take your aircraft to a LAME, drop it off and pick it up when it is all finished then yes, it will cost a lot. Also look at Experimental aircraft, there are some wonderful planes out there and the cost of ownership is less than certified aircraft.

 

Think about what you would like to do - touring, day trips away, sunny day flying, bush strips, etc. then look at buying an aircraft that is best suited to that task (the Cessna 172 will do all these things easily but of course I'm biased!).

Thanks for the information. As I said above, I'm clearly very green. I have no feel for numbers or the requirements at all. I think I'd actually really love to be part of doing a 100 hourly. Just by my inquisitive nature, just before I started the basic IF briefing, I got and invitation to take the cowling off one of the 172s at AAA. I must have spent 2 hours just asking questions and learnt heaps about the systems.

 

What exactly stops 152s getting to TBO? Are you saying something else writes off the plane apart from the engine?

 

On reddit I was advised that basically you have to buy an entirely new engine at overhaul, but I prefer to take most things read on the internet with a grain of salt. The thing I'm having difficult resolving at the moment is the vast array of numbers floating around out there. I've had advice that 100 hourlys should cost around $1,000 to $5,000 to $15,000. That level of uncertainty makes it impossible to make a decision. Now, I know there are fluctuations in the costs, but surely it's possible to put an "average" figure on it, and even a "standard deviation" to know how much you may need available in the worst case. It would take a bit of digging through records but it's surely possible to do. Most comments seem to be made on the basis of recollections and feelings about the quantities, not hard numbers.

 

In trying to resolve this I made a rough guesstimate using how much the "market" rate for wet hire of a 172 is, and the maintenance costs should be between $5-10k, probably the bigger number, which seems like a lot.

 

At the moment, I really do need to let my bank balance recover whilst trying to keep things as current as possible. I guess that means I have some thinking/research time. But I do also need to spend time on other things which I have neglected over the last 12 months. As well as trying to have fun.

 

 

[Litespeed]

For the cost of a 172 you could get a good used J430 Jabiru and have room for 4, great range, and far far cheaper to run. The service costs would be a fraction, as would the annual.

 

A alternative if you must stick with GA.

 

 

[NT5224]

For the cost of a 172 you could get a good used J430 Jabiru and have room for 4, great range, and far far cheaper to run. The service costs would be a fraction, as would the annual.A alternative if you must stick with GA.

OK, you got me interested here.

 

Whats the range in a J 430 with four up? I've flown the J 230 and wondered how it would perform with four fat blokes and full tanks. Whats its MTOW when rego'd VH? And how does it fly at that MTOW?

 

Very curious to know.

 

cheers

 

Alan

 

 

[djpacro]

One of my concerns at the moment is currency. If I complete 3 take-off and landing cycles in RA-Aus aircraft, does that satisfy the PPL PAX requirements?

from the rules:

 

 

[Litespeed]

OK, you got me interested here.Whats the range in a J 430 with four up? I've flown the J 230 and wondered how it would perform with four fat blokes and full tanks. Whats its MTOW when rego'd VH? And how does it fly at that MTOW?

 

Very curious to know.

 

cheers

 

Alan

Alan- it is a rare aircraft with 4 seats that can take four fat buggers and be full of fuel. That is really reserved for a 6 seater plane, most aircraft including the 172 will be limited in that way- if you can get it full of fat buggers, full fuel and not be overweight I would be extremely surprised. And performance would really suck..

 

According to wiki- could be wrong, the J430 has a 370 kg payload including fuel. cruise is 120knts approx at 25lts/hr . Substantially less than a 172 fuel burn.

 

The 172 can only take 30kg more max total and a lot more of its payload will be fuel to go the same distance.

 

 

[NT5224]

Alan- it is a rare aircraft with 4 seats that can take four fat buggers and be full of fuel. That is really reserved for a 6 seater plane, most aircraft including the 172 will be limited in that way- if you can get it full of fat buggers, full fuel and not be overweight I would be extremely surprised. And performance would really suck..According to wiki- could be wrong, the J430 has a 370 kg payload including fuel. cruise is 120knts approx at 25lts/hr . Substantially less than a 172 fuel burn.

 

The 172 can only take 30kg more max total and a lot more of its payload will be fuel to go the same distance.

Litespeed.

 

Thanks for that. I never realised the C172 is only rated to 30kg more payload than the Jab! I've flown both and it feels like the C172 would have better payload performance...But you make a good point about having to carry more of that load as fuel in the 172.. Never thought of that!

 

Apologies for taking thread off topic

 

Cheers

 

Alan

 

 

[aplund]

from the rules:[ATTACH]48943[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]48944[/ATTACH]

I was aware of both of these. But there can be exclusions that come into force from other orders, hence the question about where RAA is mentioned in the legislation.

 

So I've read over the exemptions in part 3 of CAO 95.55 and it is still unclear to me of the interaction between the CASR Part 61 license, the CAR and this CAO. For example, given that the aircraft is permitted under CAO 95.55 to not satisfy all the regulations under the CAR, does this mean it isn't an aircraft for the purposes of the CASR? Hence you cannot log the time and then cannot count it towards the take-off and landing requirement for a part 61 license.

 

As an aside, and I'm no legal expert, I find it interesting they have to separately specify 3 take-offs and 3 landings. I'm trying to imagine a situation where you do 3 landings and 1 take-off. 1 landing and 3 take-offs sounds particularly bad :(

 

 

[djpacro]

I quoted the law, there are no exclusions elsewhere (there may be exemptions etc).

 

Check CASA's definition of "aircraft".

 

It may be a dual flight so you just count the ones that you do.

 

 

[dutchroll]

If CASA won't allow a JP to certify photos, then who the hell is meant to?I'm getting assistance from the flight school on this. But I think the best reaction to this is "WTF"? (And when they say I need to send through the "entire application", I hope that's not some CASA code for me to pay the application fee a second time).

Yeah that's crap and most likely CASA having one of their bureaucratic "blonde" moments. JPs most certainly are allowed to certify identity document copies. Their signature block should include their name and qualification. They will also be listed on the state government website in the register of JPs. A "please explain?" to CASA would be worthwhile.

 

 

[aplund]

Yeah that's crap and most likely CASA having one of their bureaucratic "blonde" moments. JPs most certainly are allowed to certify identity document copies. Their signature block should include their name and qualification. They will also be listed on the state government website in the register of JPs. A "please explain?" to CASA would be worthwhile.

We called up and deciphered the "not certified" message. The issue is my ASIC was issued by Aviation ID Australia and hence I had not actually submitted a passport photo to CASA. The JP certified copy of my ASIC was not of sufficient quality for their system so they wanted me to put in a separate form with a recent photo for their records. Good luck figuring that out from the wording I pasted above. (I'll note that I just used less words to describe the problem then they used in the entire message they sent me.)

 

This is another situation where it seems like the system is broken. Why can they not get the photo from Aviation ID and be done with it? It was JP certified and they issued me with an ASIC. Seems like a whole lot of wasted time and effort (and money) for what benefit? On the plus side, I'm making a new friend at work who is a JP.

 

 

[dutchroll]

If you think that's a bit of a run-around, try getting a CASA temporary licence issued to a visiting foreigner. I had a guy come over a couple of years back to test fly my aircraft and do some transitional training. He had an FAA licence and a huge number of hours on type. That process was a nightmare.

 

The worst bit was that CASA refuses to recognise the FAA "english language certification" because the wording on the FAA licence is slightly different to the ICAO wording, so I had to pay for him - a born and bred American citizen - to be certified competent in English despite him already being certified as such on his FAA licence! The guys who did the language testing thought it was a joke! The whole licensing process was a nightmare.

 

If I had to do the same again I would forego that whole process and simply take him on the test flights as a "required observer" while he gave instructional feedback with myself as "PIC", because I already technically have the correct endorsements.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Litespeed.Thanks for that. I never realised the C172 is only rated to 30kg more payload than the Jab! I've flown both and it feels like the C172 would have better payload performance...But you make a good point about having to carry more of that load as fuel in the 172.. Never thought of that!

 

Apologies for taking thread off topic

 

Cheers

 

Alan

The figures I used are a bit rubbery and depends on the source and how/where the J430 is registered and at what weight. But the basic point is the same the 172 can be replaced by a J430 in many cases and will be a far more efficient machine and chew far less dollars to own and service. Addittionally the 172 will come down much harder in any hard landing/crash due to a much higher weight. The crash of a J430 is a relatively low energy event and far more suvivable and in a extremely strong airframe.

 

 

 

With the exception of a bit more weight carrying, the only main advantage of a 172 is a better penetration in crap weather.

 

 

 

Oh and if anything ever goes wrong in the cessna-the reporter might get the name correct.

 

 

[SDQDI]

While the 370kg payload is nice I think your four fat blokes must be a lot lighter than what I class four fat blokes.

 

I think though that a J430 would be perfect for a family of two adults and two kids, then the sums seem ok to me with room for full fuel plus an overnight bag.

 

 

[Litespeed]

While the 370kg payload is nice I think your four fat blokes must be a lot lighter than what I class four fat blokes.I think though that a J430 would be perfect for a family of two adults and two kids, then the sums seem ok to me with room for full fuel plus an overnight bag.

You sir get a Gold star. That is exactly what a four seater is really for, the rear seats are for the little ones not big burly blokes.

 

A well setup J430 would be a excellent touring aircraft for the wide brown land and should be able to go almost any place a 172 could. And lets face it a usable ancient 172 versus a new or low hour J430 for the same price? Not a question which I would take.

 

 

[SDQDI]

You sir get a Gold star. That is exactly what a four seater is really for, the rear seats are for the little ones not big burly blokes.A well setup J430 would be a excellent touring aircraft for the wide brown land and should be able to go almost any place a 172 could. And lets face it a usable ancient 172 versus a new or low hour J430 for the same price? Not a question which I would take.

Thanks for the gold star Litespeed:wave:

I would still consider a nice Cessna.

 

I would love a nice taildragging Cessna although a J430 with a 914 rotax up the front would make the decision harder!

 

 

[ben87r]

Even a C210 would be questionable for 4 "fat blokes" and full fuel. Aircraft carry either fuel or pax.

 

 

[aplund]

I'll take the liberty of hijacking my own thread. Why a J430 and not something like a Sling 4? Sheesh, if the MTOW for Recreational a/c was 950kg then recreational registration would be very attractive indeed.

 

 

[aplund]

I'll take the liberty of hijacking my own thread. Why a J430 and not something like a Sling 4? Sheesh, if the MTOW for Recreational a/c was 950kg then recreational registration would be very attractive indeed.

Just to answer my own question, seems to be price. Sling 4 seems to go for closer to $200,000 USD.

 

 

[Dan197]

Brisbane flying club, based out of AF

 

 

[REastwood]

What exactly stops 152s getting to TBO? Are you saying something else writes off the plane apart from the engine?

No, especially in training (dual and solo) the C172 engine doesn't need to work as hard as the C150 engine, therefore it is under a lot less stress and lasts longer.

Regarding maintenance costs, to a large degree you can pay as much as you want. If you take your C172 to "U Bute Aircraft Maintenance" at Archerfield and tell them you want it in perfect condition then the annual could easily cost $15K to $20K because they will do absolutely everything to it, and it could take months. If you can find a good LAME that knows the aircraft, that knows what is required, whats not required, and (very importantly) what to look for on that particular model so as to prevent problems occurring AND you assist/prepare the aircraft yourself then you will be able to maintain a good, airworthy aircraft for between $1000 to $3000 per year tops. Of course if you want to put in a Garmin Avionics stack with STEC autopilot then that will cost a lot (but that is not really maintenance).

 

As for load and performance of a C172M compared to a J430 then here are some numbers;

 

Cessna 172M:

 

Empty weight (varies between 610 to 650 kg depending on equipment etc)

 

MTOW: 1043 kg

 

Fuel: 182L usable

 

Fuel Burn: (cruise at 75% power, leaned correctly):30 L/hr

 

Cruise speed: (75% power 8000') 118kn TAS

 

Engine: Lycoming O320-E2D: TBO 2000 hours (can be run "on condition" with many (>90%) running to approx 3000 hours - one in the US currently >4500 hours. 150hp can run on 91 Unleaded (Petersens STC)

 

Due to it's greater weight and aluminium construction the Cessna is a lot more comfortable to fly in bumpy conditions.

 

Jabiru J430:

 

Empty weight: (varies between 330 and 360kg depending on equipment, repairs etc)

 

MTOW: 700kg

 

Fuel: 135L usable

 

Fuel Burn: (Cruise at 2850 rpm):22 - 26L/hr

 

Cruise Speed: (2850rpm, 8000'):124kn TAS

 

Engine: Jabiru 3300.

 

The Jabiru is of course a fibreglass/composite construction and is built to a weight. The question you have to ask yourself is which one do you feel comfortable flying? My personal opinion is (obviously) the Cessna. I had a Jabiru 230 (brand new) and while I did a bit of touring in the Jabiru it did have it's issues. I prefer the Cessna because the engine is a lot more reliable, the airframe is more endurable (and if needs be, better to repair) and is a lot more comfortable over long trips than the Jabiru.

 

 

[aplund]

No, especially in training (dual and solo) the C172 engine doesn't need to work as hard as the C150 engine, therefore it is under a lot less stress and lasts longer.Regarding maintenance costs, to a large degree you can pay as much as you want. If you take your C172 to "U Bute Aircraft Maintenance" at Archerfield and tell them you want it in perfect condition then the annual could easily cost $15K to $20K because they will do absolutely everything to it, and it could take months. If you can find a good LAME that knows the aircraft, that knows what is required, whats not required, and (very importantly) what to look for on that particular model so as to prevent problems occurring AND you assist/prepare the aircraft yourself then you will be able to maintain a good, airworthy aircraft for between $1000 to $3000 per year tops. Of course if you want to put in a Garmin Avionics stack with STEC autopilot then that will cost a lot (but that is not really maintenance).

 

As for load and performance of a C172M compared to a J430 then here are some numbers;

 

Cessna 172M:

 

Empty weight (varies between 610 to 650 kg depending on equipment etc)

 

MTOW: 1043 kg

 

Fuel: 182L usable

 

Fuel Burn: (cruise at 75% power, leaned correctly):30 L/hr

 

Cruise speed: (75% power 8000') 118kn TAS

 

Engine: Lycoming O320-E2D: TBO 2000 hours (can be run "on condition" with many (>90%) running to approx 3000 hours - one in the US currently >4500 hours. 150hp can run on 91 Unleaded (Petersens STC)

 

Due to it's greater weight and aluminium construction the Cessna is a lot more comfortable to fly in bumpy conditions.

 

Jabiru J430:

 

Empty weight: (varies between 330 and 360kg depending on equipment, repairs etc)

 

MTOW: 700kg

 

Fuel: 135L usable

 

Fuel Burn: (Cruise at 2850 rpm):22 - 26L/hr

 

Cruise Speed: (2850rpm, 8000'):124kn TAS

 

Engine: Jabiru 3300.

 

The Jabiru is of course a fibreglass/composite construction and is built to a weight. The question you have to ask yourself is which one do you feel comfortable flying? My personal opinion is (obviously) the Cessna. I had a Jabiru 230 (brand new) and while I did a bit of touring in the Jabiru it did have it's issues. I prefer the Cessna because the engine is a lot more reliable, the airframe is more endurable (and if needs be, better to repair) and is a lot more comfortable over long trips than the Jabiru.

Thanks for that. It's really useful to think about these things.

 

I'm really in no position to spend much money at the moment (as outlined above). So what actually interests me right at this moment is figuring out the whys behind things. The whole maintenance costs thing is all over the place. I get one person saying they usually have $600 annuals. I tried to figure out what it might cost given the "market rate" for C172 hire and I came out to somewhere between $5k-$10k. And then I get someone saying that $10,000 is an underestimate for the costs of an annual as it's more like $15k-$20k and most places loose money off private hire. This huge variation is _confusing_ to say the least.

 

Let's say it really is $20k per annual/100hourly. Where does that money go? Clearly there is the labour costs. But many people give examples of equipment costs and talk about "aviation grade". But in so many situations "aviation grade" equipment seems to just mean 50 year old technology which has a short lifetime compared to what is possible using modern materials. Yet you pay a premium for that "grade". But it's not actually clear to me that this would explain the majority of such a high cost. One day I may get to the bottom of this, but at the moment it's all totally opaque.

 

My personality cannot help but pursue questions like, why is this the case, and is there a better way? There are so many different things to ask these questions of here and there is a factorial more opinions out there, all wildly different.

 

 

[REastwood]

Thanks for that. It's really useful to think about these things.I'm really in no position to spend much money at the moment (as outlined above). So what actually interests me right at this moment is figuring out the whys behind things. The whole maintenance costs thing is all over the place. I get one person saying they usually have $600 annuals. I tried to figure out what it might cost given the "market rate" for C172 hire and I came out to somewhere between $5k-$10k. And then I get someone saying that $10,000 is an underestimate for the costs of an annual as it's more like $15k-$20k and most places loose money off private hire. This huge variation is _confusing_ to say the least.

 

Let's say it really is $20k per annual/100hourly. Where does that money go? Clearly there is the labour costs. But many people give examples of equipment costs and talk about "aviation grade". But in so many situations "aviation grade" equipment seems to just mean 50 year old technology which has a short lifetime compared to what is possible using modern materials. Yet you pay a premium for that "grade". But it's not actually clear to me that this would explain the majority of such a high cost. One day I may get to the bottom of this, but at the moment it's all totally opaque.

 

My personality cannot help but pursue questions like, why is this the case, and is there a better way? There are so many different things to ask these questions of here and there is a factorial more opinions out there, all wildly different.

You might want to consider also that the "Cost" of hiring is also about how much they want to hire the aircraft out, i.e. "I don't mind hiring mine out as long as I make a lot of money out of it, so I'll charge $300/hour", or "I need to hire my aircraft out so I'll charge $160/hr."

 

 

[aplund]

You might want to consider also that the "Cost" of hiring is also about how much they want to hire the aircraft out, i.e. "I don't mind hiring mine out as long as I make a lot of money out of it, so I'll charge $300/hour", or "I need to hire my aircraft out so I'll charge $160/hr."

Well, just looking at the flight schools, the variation for a C172 (any model really) is quite low. You get $260-$290/hour wet (ex. landing/airways fees and tax) just about everywhere in the city. Maybe if I drove 3 hours somewhere it'd go down to $240.

 

 

[Aubrey Tiller]

Congrats on the New Ratings! You will find the answers to those questions you posed...just don't give up, it will all work out.

 

Regards, Aubrey

 

 

[Possum1]

Aplund, instead of surfing the net, you should be burning some shoe leather and talking to some people about costs.

 

Just say you are looking at purchasing a C172M/PA-28 and go and ask Ian Colville at Ian Aviation, Ron at Rapair and whoever owns Flight Maintenance, now that Peter has sold it(Jay will be able to help). All these workshop owners are approachable but busy people. Phone beforehand, make a time or ascertain a time that they will be there and ask them, what would it cost for an annual(100 hourly) plus fixing the things that they would typically find wrong with a C172M/PA-28?

 

This year(2017) will be a particularly expensive year as everyone with control cables more than 15 years old will have to replace them. A normal year for us at Archerfield would be $5000. The worst was $10,000 - engine replacement costs and $17,000 - corrosion repairs involving the removal of both wings.

 

Don't forget to also visit David Paynter at Brisbane Aero Engines for his input about the typical overhaul costs of a Lycoming O-320 engine.

 

As a person working full time at a career as a professional, would you have the time or the skills to tackle the hours of owner-maintenance required for a RA-AUS aircraft? Many/most? of the owners of ultra-light aircraft are retired or semi-retired tradies with a solid background of workshop experience from their working lives, which equips them very well for keeping their aircraft maintained and flying.