ATSB delays in investigations

[Mick]

From the ABC, being bought to light after pilot of Essendon accident still under investigation from previous incident.

 

Air safety watchdog 'failing': Two-thirds of probes not done on time

 

 

[turboplanner]

Very easy for people to say; very difficult to reach a bullet proof conclusion if you are the investigator.

 

Sometimes on thuis forum, we have the answers within 20 minutes or so, or we think we do. Often when the final report comes out, we were right, often we were wrong, but the standard we expect from ATSB is a thorough investigation, drawing together all the evidence, and reaching a conculsion beyond doubt.

 

That involves getting detailed evidence and analysis from third parties, and it all takes time.

 

Sure the loved ones are looking for answers; but do they really want fudged replies?

 

 

[Downunder]

Cmon turbo, investigations still underway from 2015.......

 

Looks like all the effort/budget has gone "glory seeking" with MH370 to me.

 

We seem to be more concerned than the chinese or malaysians in MH370, who have just pretty much written it off.....

 

 

[Geoff13]

VThat involves getting detailed evidence and analysis from third parties, and it all takes time.

I question why Bureaucracy and the Legal Systems both require so much time.

 

I wonder if they are not just feathering their own nests and ensuring they have an income for the next x number of years.

 

Yes people have to be interviewed leads need to be chased and systems need to be checked and verified but it seems to me the the sluggishness of official channels is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

It seems that the time taken to do a job can be extended long enough with a little bit of effort to put several kids through University.

 

I once tried to book a truck in to get a machinery, (annual inspection) current inspection expired 23 Dec. I rang on the 1st of November only to be told that no inspections were available until late January.

 

When I asked for an extension I was promptly told that I should not have left it to the last minute to book.

 

The public sector have long since forgotten that they are Public Servants not Public Hindrances.

 

If someone rang me to do a job and I told them to come back in 3 months I would get laughed into bankruptcy.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

people hate big government, there are no votes in fixing the system

 

 

[turboplanner]

Cmon turbo, investigations still underway from 2015.......Looks like all the effort/budget has gone "glory seeking" with MH370 to me.

We seem to be more concerned than the chinese or malaysians in MH370, who have just pretty much written it off.....

Unfinished 2015 investigations would compare favourably for many Coroners' findings.

 

Apart from that, when you think of what they have to look at, and know that often some arsehole has killed his family through a blatant misuse of the aircraft, and a history of rule flouting years long, they could do with a little slack.

 

There's also the level of budget they are allocated vs the level of budget required to help speed up the process.

 

Having said that, it would be interesting to know what the average investigation to report time is these days compared to Macartur Job's era. That might tell the story.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I question why Bureaucracy and the Legal Systems both require so much time.I wonder if they are not just feathering their own nests and ensuring they have an income for the next x number of years.

Yes people have to be interviewed leads need to be chased and systems need to be checked and verified but it seems to me the the sluggishness of official channels is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

It seems that the time taken to do a job can be extended long enough with a little bit of effort to put several kids through University.

 

I once tried to book a truck in to get a machinery, (annual inspection) current inspection expired 23 Dec. I rang on the 1st of November only to be told that no inspections were available until late January.

 

When I asked for an extension I was promptly told that I should not have left it to the last minute to book.

 

The public sector have long since forgotten that they are Public Servants not Public Hindrances.

 

If someone rang me to do a job and I told them to come back in 3 months I would get laughed into bankruptcy.

NSW has always been a bit different; I remember showing up at the Albury office with three Atkinson prime movers to register.

It took so long I my boots go waterlogged and I had to go out an buy new ones. Had to book into a Motel overnight and they finished the last one the following afternoon.

 

Brand new trucks, just off the line, clearly with air brakes and spring brake working, but they tested all the air circuits with gauges (which they had to tap in), couldn't find a fault, and cheerfully sent me on my way with teeth ground down to the bone.

 

in Victoria you get a private contractor to do it, but that costs you money.

 

 

[Geoff13]

In Qld you also use a private contractor for unregistered vehicles, they cannot however do registered vehicles.

 

What I did in the case above was cancel the registration on the 21 Dec, had the vehicle inspected by a civvy contractor on the morning of the 22 Dec and then re-registered it and didn't need another inspection for another 12 months. The private inspection cost about the same as the Government one and he came to me. Only thing was I needed a weighbridge to re-register. That my friend is bureaucracy gone mad.

 

 

[up-into-the-air]

The #atsb is certainly on the nose, only just pipped by #casa.

 

Avalon showed how dysfunctional #casa were with the #casa castle.

 

#atsb is still at the #pelair inquiry and won't complete it until 7 1/2 years are up.

 

Judicial inquiry needed.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Avalon showed how dysfunctional #casa were with the #casa castle.

What happened at Avalon?

 

 

[up-into-the-air]

More spin from #casa and Carmody -

 

#casa still has not come to terms with actual pilot numbers and quotes over 40,000.

 

My last estimate, from #casa numbers gives < 20,000.

 

#atsb gave an address which does not come to terms with slowness of reports and the gross inaccuracies in them eg. Dromader, Albury, Pelair and on and on.

 

Airservices could not explain away the ADSB controversy or the loss of staff or movement of costs to the GA sector.

 

 

[Keith Page]

The #atsb is certainly on the nose, only just pipped by #casa.Avalon showed how dysfunctional #casa were with the #casa castle.

 

#atsb is still at the #pelair inquiry and won't complete it until 7 1/2 years are up.

 

Judicial inquiry needed.

I must confess I am not up to speed on the change for the medicals. However I was hearing all was on track for the change and going ahead. "Great".

 

Now I hear there is a NPRM out regarding these changes. "Why??????????"

 

What I do ask, "Is there some bureaucrats looking after their pay number?"

 

What I have gleaned out of how CASA works if some bureaucrat does not want something they send it out to a NPRM then it will never happen as NPRMs take ages to finalise even years and people give up through lack of tenacity.

 

The transport minister should jump in here, "Do this and this if it dose not happen start lopping the tree from the top.

 

KP

 

 

[turboplanner]

More spin from #casa and Carmody -#casa still has not come to terms with actual pilot numbers and quotes over 40,000.

My last estimate, from #casa numbers gives < 20,000.

 

#atsb gave an address which does not come to terms with slowness of reports and the gross inaccuracies in them eg. Dromader, Albury, Pelair and on and on.

 

Airservices could not explain away the ADSB controversy or the loss of staff or movement of costs to the GA sector.

More puffery; how about starting with what you were on about regarding Avalon?

 

 

[Keith Page]

Hello Geoff13 #4

 

The legal system for some reason they think time frames do not involve them fellows every one else has to abide by time frames.

 

"On time", "Time schedules", "Submission dates", "Closing dates"... those terms are not in their vocabulary but get an "Extension" by gosh that is.

 

They are getting paid by time --- however the rest of use do not get a brass razoo by waiting.

 

To me Turbo, up-into-the-air is referring to "waiting time" and "procrastination" which both organisations are good at.

 

KP

 

 

[IBob]

While I have no experience or opinion on the Australian system, I would like to better understand why these things take as long as they do in many parts of the world.

 

Consider, for instance, a situation where a privately owned light aircraft crash lands in open country:

 

The wreck must be inspected in some detail.

 

Recent aircraft and flight history to time of the event must be gathered.

 

Weather data and any other external factors must recorded.

 

Witnesses must be questioned and statements taken.

 

That is a fair bit of preliminary work, but unless there were the need for ongoing consultation with manufacturers, or some other time consuming aspects, would it not be completed in a matter of weeks?

 

And on receipt of autopsies and medical reports, would the investigators not then have all the information they are going to get?

 

So why, then, delays of many months and sometimes years?

 

Perhaps someone familiar with the process can explain?

 

 

[Cosmick]

I don't put that much trust in the ATSB findings. Myself and Mark Kyle (Kylecom) witnessed a Cessna crash at YCAB some years back and were interviewed separately. We had a little plane model in our hand showing the last moments of flight and impact straight in. When later reading the results of the enquiry they had it cartwheeling down the runway. Mark and I looked at each other and shrugged.

 

 

[Keith Page]

Yes Cosmick there you go how could some one twist that up some much.

 

Now how much do you trust ATSB "OR" Is there some bureaucrat being looked after?

 

KP.

 

 

[ben87r]

PelAir was 09, still not finalised.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes Cosmick there you go how could some one twist that up some much.Now how much do you trust ATSB "OR" Is there some bureaucrat being looked after?

KP.

Easy; with kinetic energy, what you see, sometimes is not what is happening.

I'm not saying the two witnesses were mistaken on that occasion.

 

The sheet metal usually tells the story.

 

 

[Kununurra]

You can sugar coat this issue as much as you like it will still be a joke.

 

On one hand we hear how important the safety of aviation is in Australia and on the other incident reports that take years to complete.

 

The government as a group should be ashamed of the dismal performance.

 

The only way this could ever possibly improve would be to have the politicians wages indexed to the key performance indicators of the ATSB complete reports.

 

I bet we would then and only then see a major improvement in completion of reports that are supposed to improve safety for us all.

 

In my opinion not only the government of the day but previous governments sees these as a tick in the box complete or otherwise.

 

Cheers

 

 

[turboplanner]

You can sugar coat this issue as much as you like it will still be a joke.On one hand we hear how important the safety of aviation is in Australia and on the other incident reports that take years to complete.

The government as a group should be ashamed of the dismal performance.

 

The only way this could ever possibly improve would be to have the politicians wages indexed to the key performance indicators of the ATSB complete reports.

 

I bet we would then and only then see a major improvement in completion of reports that are supposed to improve safety for us all.

 

In my opinion not only the government of the day but previous governments sees these as a tick in the box complete or otherwise.

 

Cheers

It's not being sugar coated at all.

There are just a few people who cannot come to grips with the processes involved and like to sound off.

 

There are many Coroners cases which take a similar time to conclude; most public liability lawsuits take years to conclude.

 

The chains of investigation are not always parallel, and quite often it's the evidence that gets hung up in a queue, then the result which has to be sent to another specialist gets hung up in their queue etc.

 

 

[Kununurra]

It's not being sugar coated at all.There are just a few people who cannot come to grips with the processes involved and like to sound off.

There are many Coroners cases which take a similar time to conclude; most public liability lawsuits take years to conclude.

 

The chains of investigation are not always parallel, and quite often it's the evidence that gets hung up in a queue, then the result which has to be sent to another specialist gets hung up in their queue etc.

I guess then our views are worlds apart, I am not accepting and you are, do you accept that? Because I accept that you have an opinion and I respect that, I also have an opinion.

i would suggest that there is more than "just a few people who cannot come to grips with the process"

 

Cheers ✈️

 

 

[Happyflyer]

On 22 March 2014 a Cessna 206 crashed ar Caboolture with the loss of five lives. To me, it is unacceptable that this investigation has not been completed after nearly three years. The same pathetic excuses are listed again and again below. Let's hope the new boss at the ATSB can make some improvement.

 

Collision with terrain involving Cessna U206G, VH-FRT, Caboolture Airfield, Qld on 22 March 2014

 

Updated: 30 June 2016

 

Quality assurance and management review of the draft investigation report is in progress prior to being forwarded to the ATSB Commission for approval for release to directly involved parties (DIP).

 

The draft investigation report is now anticipated for release to DIPs for comment on the factual accuracy of the report in July 2016. Feedback from those parties over the 28-day DIP period will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in September 2016.

 

Updated: 1 March 2016

 

The additional investigative work reported in our 19 October 2015 update has been completed. Quality assurance of the investigation and draft report is being finalised before ATSB Commission approval of the report for release to directly involved parties (DIP).

 

The draft investigation report is now anticipated for release to DIPs for comment by mid‑April 2016. Feedback from those parties over the 28-day DIP period on the factual accuracy of the draft report will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in June 2016.

 

Updated: 19 October 2015

 

Completion of the draft investigation report has been delayed to allow for additional investigative work and by competing team member priorities and workload. It is now anticipated for release to directly involved parties (DIP) for comment in December 2015. Feedback from those parties over the 28-day DIP period on the factual accuracy of the draft report will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in February 2016.

 

Updated: 25 August 2015

 

Completion of the draft investigation report has been delayed by competing priorities and workload, and is now anticipated for release to directly involved parties (DIP) for comment in October 2015. Feedback from those parties over the 28-day DIP period on the factual accuracy of the draft report will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated to be released to the public in December 2015.

 

Update: 14 May 2015

 

Completion of the draft report has been delayed by team member competing priorities on other investigations and is now anticipated for release to directly involved parties (DIP’s) for comment by the end of June 2015. Feedback from those parties over the 28-day DIP period on the factual accuracy of the draft report will be considered for inclusion in the final report, which is anticipated for release to the public in August 2015.

 

 

[Birdseye]

Is the underlying issue, that along with their dreadful TV programmes, we have also acquired the onerous litigatious ewnvironment from the USA? Draft, review, quality assurance etc., all smack of the 'covering of the backside' that has become necessary in just about any process. Not to mention that any report has also to be politically correct in order to meet the expectations of the media hounds.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Is the underlying issue, that along with their dreadful TV programmes, we have also acquired the onerous litigatious ewnvironment from the USA? Draft, review, quality assurance etc., all smack of the 'covering of the backside' that has become necessary in just about any process. Not to mention that any report has also to be politically correct in order to meet the expectations of the media hounds.

I think you are confusing ATSB's decisions and publications with Public Liability, which didn't come from, the USA, but is based on the 1932 Case from Scotland (Donoghue v Stevenson)

It was Product Liability which Raph Nader championed, and which took off in the USA, wiping out the manufacture of some products, including some light aircraft. The Australian Government followed suit by introducing Product Liability to this Country, from memory between 1987 and 1999, but so far no one has made a claim under that legislation because the cost would involve taking it all the way to the High Court, and would be beyond the financial capacity of Australian citizens or companies. Penalties and Punitive damages awarded against a manufacturer can be in the order of $50<100 million.

 

There are still some people who equate "covering the backside" to duty of care, but they are different processes as these people find out when they get on the receiving end of a claim.

 

If you care to study Donoghue V Stevenson, which is a relatively simple case, you'll find that ATSB, generally would have little to fear from producing a report about an incident where someone else had failed in their duty of care, and killed someone.

 

Similarly, it's a long bow to draw, linking an ATSB report to any media report, let alone believing that they sit down for a year of two working out how they are going to word the report to meet the expectations of the media hounds; in quite a few cases, I've been following up on a crash on the ATSB site, found it months after its release, posted it here, and that's the first time the general public has ever seen it.

 

The main problem is that like the Coroners' reports, all avenues of inquiry must have been completed, with their associated specialist reports, beyond question, and you can't put a time limit on that without compromising the final report.

 

I believe the current ATSB practice of producing an interim report very quickly arose out of similar impatient pilots some decades ago. As history shows, those reports have been produced very promptly, but it's the thorough investigations we need.